The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

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Vixen said:
It didn't sink because it lay on a shallow bank on its side, partially submerged. Had someone or something opened the car ramp doors mid-sea, it would have capsized and then floated belly up, like the MS Jan Heweliusz. Well, you can't go swimming unless your body is submerged but once you are in the water, I am sure Archimedes Principle works just fine.
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You keep repeating this but provide no evidence for it.
Why would it have floated 'belly up'?

tell me about the Archimedes principle?
 
Vixen said:
A 55-tonne bow visor cannot make an 18,000 (0.003:1) cause a big bang or cause it to lurch violently when it is attached to the vessel, even if loose. Once it came off it immediately sank. It is not bowl-shaped so that it can float. The vertical dent in its nose could have been caused by it making contact with the bulbous bow.

The violent lurch from which the Estonia could not recover was as a result of a massive influx of water as a probable result of being hit by a submarine or timed explosives, given it happened at midnight Swedish time - midway through its journey and in international waters, where any submarine can lurk - and ex-RN diver and expert in military explosives, Brian Braidwood identified signs of an explosion in the bow bulkhead and pointed out devices showing up in the Rockwater videos.

Also, it doesn't fit the time line as given by JAIC.
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Submarines and explosives that we have no evidence for and water rushing through a hole above the waterline?

Of course 55 tons being slammed in to the hull by a wave will make the ship lurch and will be a loud bang.
 
Vixen said:
Think about it, the ship is 327 times bigger than the bow visor. and stretches 155 m. Survivors who were at the other end of the ship - where the cafeteria was - heard or felt a definite sensation of a crash or an explosion.
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A 55 ton weight being slammed in to the hull will ring the ship like a bell. It will be felt throughout the hull.
As already posted and anchor hitting home in to the hawse can be felt and heard.
 
LondonJohn said:
The van from where the mortars were fired was not in (or even near) 10 Downing St. As I've pointed out already, the van was parked on Whitehall, adjacent to the Banqueting House. Which was about 150m or so further away from No.10 wrt your stated location. And which was similarly incapable of being viewed from your stated location.

Anyway, I suppose it's time to either a) put this silly (but illuminating) topic to bed altogether, or b) split it off into its own thread - perhaps as a study into the fallibility of human memory.
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So you are claiming only people in Whitehall could have seen the masses of smoke billowing out or heard it going off.


I see.

So I would have been here.
 

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Vixen said:
Well here's what wiki says:

wiki

and here's what the newspapers said:

SUN

So they all instinctively knew it was an explosion and dived under the table, accordingly.
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You asked who didn't witness it. I said me. No idea why you felt compelled to post this totally irrelevant screed. Suggest you get back to your fantasies about the sunken ferry.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
A ship is designed to be supported along it's full hull length not by the middle.

It will sag and the hull will fracture and tear.
It happens to ships that aren't supported correctly in dry dock and to ships not loaded correctly.
Estonia was supported midships and the ends sagged. that is where the hole came from. It is a tear.
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giphy.gif
 
Vixen said:
Contrary to your claims, I heard the explosions and saw the smoke and saw the startled workman clinging on the scaffolding. And I saw it from my office window at Old Queen Street, SW1.
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What does any of this have to do with the Estonia?
 
Vixen said:
Re: Cart Reitmaan's eye witness account of seeing something white, or bright, moving away from the ship as he looked over the rails after running up from his cabin in Deck 1, which was below the waterline, because of water coming into his cabin.

He was surprised when some Finnish police made their way to Estonia to question him specifically about his sighting.

Here's a submarine that fits that description:



Pictured: a Russian Former Soviet Union mini-submarine in use in the 1990's.

And a K-278 Komosomolets, which I believe now lies at the bottom of the Norwegian Sea encased in concrete.
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That small white mini-sub is not fast enough to chase, or catch the Estonia in calm waters. Sure as hell couldn't get near it in a storm. And it would be lying on the bottom nearby.
 
LondonJohn said:
The detachment of the bow visor isn't what caused the ship to lurch. The ingress of a very large volume/mass of seawater around the now-broken front ramp and onto the vehicle deck is what caused the ship to lurch. This amount of seawater (which weighs slightly more than one ton per cubic metre) coming into the open-plan vehicle deck would have quickly destabilised the ship very significantly, in terms of both trim and buoyancy*. And once the seawater had found a low spot, more and more additional seawater would have piled problem upon problem. And as soon as the ship pitched more than around 25-30 degrees to the side, the decks vehicles would in turn have started to slide (and eventually roll) to that same side. It would quickly have become a vicious circle with only one possible outcome: the sinking of the ship.


* Just like (can you guess?) Herald of Free Enterprise.
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We went through all this a couple of weeks ago, look back through the thread.
 
Axxman300 said:
That small white mini-sub is not fast enough to chase, or catch the Estonia in calm waters. Sure as hell couldn't get near it in a storm. And it would be lying on the bottom nearby.
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Being in that little guy on or close to the surface in a storm would be a rather nasty experience. And I doubt that there would be any control of the sub at all.
 
Vixen said:
The Herald of Free Enterprise would have turtled and likely not sunk for quite a few hours, if not days.
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What is your evidence for this? Water on the car deck would have gone straight down in to the hull through open hatchways and stairways.
It would have filled the machinery spaces, they are the largest open areas and span multiple decks, it's the reason ships usually sink by the stern.

Nobody on the Estonia mentioned a sudden roar of seawater in the car deck, the clattering of sea water against steel and glass would have been a horrendous racket yet no-one heard it.
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Why would it have been any louder than the noise of the water flooding through a hole caused by a submarine or down the stairwells or in through the broken windows?
Didn't the bombs blow the bow visor off and let the water in?

Make your mind up.

But 21% of the survivors did report a series of explosions/bangs/a collision and being violently thrown out of bed.
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They reported loud noises and movements consistent with a ship losing it's bow visor in a storm and the ship heeling over as it foundered
 
Vixen said:
Is there anybody here who didn't witness it?
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I didn't but more relevent, I have taken part in shore bombardments using naval guns, they make the ship shudder when they fire and can be felt three decks down.
I have felt the shockwave through the hull of bombs detonating in the water around a ship and felt the shockwave of a bomb going off in another ship a mile away.

On exercises I have felt the ship positively ring and jump as a trio of Limbo Mortar anti submarine charges detonated ahead of the ship when we fired on an underwater contact.

I have heard and felt a collision with another ship and with a dock side.

None of them sound or feel anything exploding ashore. The sound and feel of a shell or bomb exploding in the distance on a shore target are completely different.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
So a 1lb hammer can't make a loud bang on a 100lb anvil?

If the visors hinges broke it would still be hooked over the top of the ramp which would stop it falling away immediately even if all its fixings failed. And a large wave could certainly slam it against the bow and also cause the ship to lurch.
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By that logic it couldn't have been an explosive charge either, because they weigh a lot less.
 
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Vixen said:
As I said, more than once, the diver/s are unnamed so you don't know whether he did or did not. AFAIAC there was nothing remiss in anything I said.
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Provide evidence he did. Fanfic is not evidence. If he had dived on that wreck, it would have been mentioned. It specifically states he was at home. it specifically states he was sent the reports. It specifically states he learned about the case and wreck from talking to the team, reports and videos.

You're wrong, just admit it.
 
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