The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

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If you and your chums don't stop your mobbing I am going to leave.
Do what you feel you need in order to feel safe, I guess?

ETA: It occurs to me you've been quite happy throughout this thread to impugn motives and suggest vile things about figures you disagree with and other discussion participants.

But you're the victim. Of course you are.
 
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Seriously, do I keep making snide and unpleasant comments about your posts as a matter of course? You have zero reason to conduct your campaign of trolling me.

I'm not. I'm commenting on factual matters. You cannot have seen the #10 gardens from Old Queen St.

Fact.
 
I was also working close to Downing Street that day - and in fact I did have a clear line of sight view of Downing Street (from my office on Carlton House Terrace overlooking St James's Park and Horseguard's Parade). I miss that view.

We were all specifically told not to look out the window after the attack happened, so I have no other exciting (or imaginary) tidbits to contribute, although I do recall thinking it sounded like a ship sinking.

ETA: This was my window:

[imgw=600]https://i.imgur.com/hTnrMdK.png[/imgw]
 
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The detachment of the bow visor isn't what caused the ship to lurch. The ingress of a very large volume/mass of seawater around the now-broken front ramp and onto the vehicle deck is what caused the ship to lurch. This amount of seawater (which weighs slightly more than one ton per cubic metre) coming into the open-plan vehicle deck would have quickly destabilised the ship very significantly, in terms of both trim and buoyancy*. And once the seawater had found a low spot, more and more additional seawater would have piled problem upon problem. And as soon as the ship pitched more than around 25-30 degrees to the side, the decks vehicles would in turn have started to slide (and eventually roll) to that same side. It would quickly have become a vicious circle with only one possible outcome: the sinking of the ship.


* Just like (can you guess?) Herald of Free Enterprise.

The Herald of Free Enterprise would have turtled and likely not sunk for quite a few hours, if not days.

Nobody on the Estonia mentioned a sudden roar of seawater in the car deck, the clattering of sea water against steel and glass would have been a horrendous racket yet no-one heard it.

But 21% of the survivors did report a series of explosions/bangs/a collision and being violently thrown out of bed.
 
BTW, I'm interested (and in no small way amused) in the fact that - as per Vixen's version of events - the Finnish authorities and individuals tend (perhaps without exception) to be the noble, fair-minded actors in the drama.

Sheer coincidence, I'm sure.

Well, not Kari Lehtola, who apparently agreed without any real demur to act as a secret foreign agent for Sweden.
 
I was also working close to Downing Street that day - and in fact I did have a clear line of sight view of Downing Street (from my office on Carlton House Terrace overlooking St James's Park and Horseguard's Parade). I miss that view.

We were all specifically told not to look out the window after the attack happened, so I have no other exciting (or imaginary) tidbits to contribute, although I do recall thinking it sounded like a ship sinking.

ETA: This was my window:

[imgw=600]https://i.imgur.com/hTnrMdK.png[/imgw]


Nice! ICA?
 
Contrary to your claims, I heard the explosions and saw the smoke and saw the startled workman clinging on the scaffolding.

The reason you're being picked up on it is that it's contrary to your claim, i.e. that you had a "birds eye view" of the attack.

For the record, I also heard it, from 6 or 7 miles away in Acton. My colleagues who were literally standing in Downing Street heard it rather more distinctly as you might imagine. Thankfully none were hurt. Alas, none of us had a bird's eye view.
 
I'm not. I'm commenting on factual matters. You cannot have seen the #10 gardens from Old Queen St.

Fact.

I said:

"Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh course people know, to be able to describe it. I lived in London when the IRA had their bombing campaigns. I was actually working at an office in Victoria when I had a bird's eye view of the cannon going off in the erstwhile PM John Major's back yard at No. 10 Downing street. I looked out of the window at the commotion to see a startled workman hanging on to scaffold for dear life having almost fallen off in fright."


I clearly said I had a bird's eye view of the cannon going off, I didn't say I saw the back yard. The cannon/mortar was going off in the back yard, I saw the aftermath because obviously I didn't look out of the window until I heard it go off.
 
The Herald of Free Enterprise would have turtled and likely not sunk for quite a few hours, if not days.

Nobody on the Estonia mentioned a sudden roar of seawater in the car deck, the clattering of sea water against steel and glass would have been a horrendous racket yet no-one heard it.

But 21% of the survivors did report a series of explosions/bangs/a collision and being violently thrown out of bed.


You're really not aware of the glaring internal contradiction within this post of yours?
 
The reason you're being picked up on it is that it's contrary to your claim, i.e. that you had a "birds eye view" of the attack.

For the record, I also heard it, from 6 or 7 miles away in Acton. My colleagues who were literally standing in Downing Street heard it rather more distinctly as you might imagine. Thankfully none were hurt. Alas, none of us had a bird's eye view.

Is there anybody here who didn't witness it?
 
I clearly said I had a bird's eye view of the cannon going off, I didn't say I saw the back yard. The cannon/mortar was going off in the back yard, I saw the aftermath because obviously I didn't look out of the window until I heard it go off.

That makes no sense at all. Get some sleep. Please?
 
I said:

"Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh course people know, to be able to describe it. I lived in London when the IRA had their bombing campaigns. I was actually working at an office in Victoria when I had a bird's eye view of the cannon going off in the erstwhile PM John Major's back yard at No. 10 Downing street. I looked out of the window at the commotion to see a startled workman hanging on to scaffold for dear life having almost fallen off in fright."


I clearly said I had a bird's eye view of the cannon going off, I didn't say I saw the back yard. The cannon/mortar was going off in the back yard, I saw the aftermath because obviously I didn't look out of the window until I heard it go off.


The van from where the mortars were fired was not in (or even near) 10 Downing St. As I've pointed out already, the van was parked on Whitehall, adjacent to the Banqueting House. Which was about 150m or so further away from No.10 wrt your stated location. And which was similarly incapable of being viewed from your stated location.

Anyway, I suppose it's time to either a) put this silly (but illuminating) topic to bed altogether, or b) split it off into its own thread - perhaps as a study into the fallibility of human memory.
 
But it wasn't hitting it, was it. It was attached to the ship and when it fell off it immediately sank, being 55 tonnes. If it was swinging loose that would not be enough for it to sound like an explosion or a heavy collision as it had little freedom of movement. Sure, a seaman near the bow would have hear this but to try to make out that this was the source of the noise that survivors experience is an assumption that is not warranted IMV.

Of course it would be enough. 55 tons is a hug weight.

An anchor slamming up to the hawse pipe as it raises can be heard through the ship
 
Well, me. But in my defense I was 7600 km away. Probably wasn't quite that loud.

Well here's what wiki says:

On arrival, the driver parked the van and left the scene on a waiting motorcycle.[7] Several minutes later at 10:08 am, as a policeman was walking towards the van to investigate it, three mortar shells were launched from a Mark 10 homemade mortar, followed by the explosion of a pre-set incendiary device.[4][7] This device was designed to destroy any forensic evidence and set the van on fire.[7] Each shell was four and a half feet long, weighed 140 pounds (60 kg), and carried a 40 pounds (20 kg) payload of the plastic explosive Semtex.[10] The weapon was described as a Mark 10 homemade mortar. Two shells landed on Mountbatten Green, a grassed area near the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.[2][7] One exploded and the other failed to detonate.[9] The third shell exploded in the back garden of 10 Downing Street, 30 yards (27 m) from the office where the cabinet were meeting.[7][10] Had the shell struck 10 Downing Street itself, it is likely the entire cabinet would have been killed.
wiki

and here's what the newspapers said:

WHEN John Major began a meeting of his war cabinet one snowy February morning, he was not expecting to end it diving under a table in fear for his life.

But 30 years ago this Sunday, our then Prime Minister would do just that. Moments after he uttered the word “bomb”, a very real one exploded yards from the gathering in the heart of 10 Downing Street, forcing him and his colleagues to take cover.

It was just after 10am on February 7, 1991, when all hell broke loose — minutes after the start of the tense Cabinet Room meeting to talk about the ongoing Gulf War.

As Mr Major and colleagues discussed a possible Iraqi terror attack on London, a mortar shell exploded with a deafening bang in the Downing Street garden.

But this was not an Iraqi bomb — it was the latest attack by the IRA.

Lord Robin Butler, then head of the Civil Service, was sitting near the Prime Minister.

He recalled: “My first reaction was that this was a terrorist attack and some guys with sub-machine guns were going to appear and spray us all with bullets.

John Major had just used the word ‘bomb’ and there was this large explosion.

Lord Robin Butler
“I dived under the table — so, I recall, did John Major — and probably others as well.

“We were talking at the time, curiously enough, about a possible terrorist attack organised by Saddam Hussein in London.

“My recollection was that John Major had just used the word ‘bomb’ and there was this large explosion.

“The windows of the Cabinet Room didn’t shatter because they had a sort of protective film on them, but the French windows at the end of the room blew in.”Members of the Provisional IRA parked a van on Whitehall outside Banqueting House, around 200 yards from Downing Street.

In the back, three home-made mortar cylinders were angled to fire four-foot shells stuffed with plastic explosives through a hole cut in the van’s roof at No 10.

The van was also rigged with an incendiary device to destroy any evidence after the mortars had fired.

Once everything was in place, the terrorists fled and, at 10.08am, the bombs were launched.

Two shells overshot Downing Street and landed on a green by the Foreign Office — one exploding while the other failed to go off.

But the other flew over the rooftops of the Cabinet Office building and into the garden of No 10, where it detonated with an almighty bang.

Peter Lilley, then Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, remembers throwing himself behind a pillar, fearing a second explosion.

Lord Lilley told The Sun: “There’s a pillar in the Cabinet Room. I jumped up and stood with it between me and the window in case another bomb went off.

“When the noise subsided, I turned round and saw the room was completely empty. I thought, ‘How did they all get out and leave me here?’. Then they all began to emerge from under the table.”
SUN

So they all instinctively knew it was an explosion and dived under the table, accordingly.
 
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