The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

[LondonJohn]

Oh course people know, to be able to describe it. I lived in London when the IRA had their bombing campaigns. I was actually working at an office in Victoria when I had a bird's eye view of the cannon going off in the erstwhile PM John Major's back yard at No. 10 Downing street. I looked out of the window at the commotion to see a startled workman hanging on to scaffold for dear life having almost fallen off in fright. Likewise, people recognise when something has collided.

Of course, the survivors of the Estonia might have been mistaken but that doesn't mean their eye witness accounts should be ignored and not investigated.

Calculate it for yourself: 29 out of 137 survivors.

Ah well no, because 1) the closest part of Victoria to Downing Street is just under a mile away, 2) the "cannon going off" was actually an improvised mortar attack from a van parked up on Whitehall, and 3) as such, I very strongly question your claimed recollection. Which, inadvertently (on your part) just goes to show that the claimed recollections of claimed witnesses - especially those with no experience or expertise in the field - can very often be wildly unreliable (regardless of the sincerity of the "recollection").

As a further illustration of relevance, my father - a fairly senior military officer and diplomat - was actually working on that day in his corner office of the Banqueting House* on Whitehall, no more than 20-30 yards from the parked-up position of the van from which the mortars were fired. Despite very good familiarity with ordnance and explosions, he thought the noise of the three mortars being fired was just a vehicle backfiring (although he immediately recognised the depth and reverberation of the three shells as they landed as explosive detonations). Even experienced people can have trouble correctly identifying these sorts of things, if they take place totally unexpectedly - especially if direct eyesight of the event doesn't take place, and the event is only heard.


* Bonus fun fact for history fans: the Banqueting House has a long and storied history; its major "claim to fame" is that it was the scene of the execution (beheading) of King Charles I in *double-checks for accuracy* 1649, on a makeshift scaffold set up in Whitehall outside the building.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It didn't sink because it lay on a shallow bank on its side, partially submerged. Had someone or something opened the car ramp doors mid-sea, it would have capsized and then floated belly up, like the MS Jan Heweliusz. Well, you can't go swimming unless your body is submerged but once you are in the water, I am sure Archimedes Principle works just fine.

So you are saying the DoT report is wrong and the Herald would not have sunk if it had not reached a shallow bank. Hmm. Where do you think their analysis went wrong?

 

[Vixen]

I dare say if the reason it hits the ship is the impact of a particularly large wave, then that will be a very big bang occurring simultaneously with the ship lurching violently.

A 55-tonne bow visor cannot make an 18,000 (0.003:1) cause a big bang or cause it to lurch violently when it is attached to the vessel, even if loose. Once it came off it immediately sank. It is not bowl-shaped so that it can float. The vertical dent in its nose could have been caused by it making contact with the bulbous bow.

The violent lurch from which the Estonia could not recover was as a result of a massive influx of water as a probable result of being hit by a submarine or timed explosives, given it happened at midnight Swedish time - midway through its journey and in international waters, where any submarine can lurk - and ex-RN diver and expert in military explosives, Brian Braidwood identified signs of an explosion in the bow bulkhead and pointed out devices showing up in the Rockwater videos.

Also, it doesn't fit the time line as given by JAIC.

 

[GlennB]

It was from Old Queen Street and it was a very good view.

To the SW of Downing St, 3 or 4 storeys max in the style of that area, with no view whatsoever to the gardens of #10, which are to the N of #10. I assumed you were in a high-rise office block in Victoria, and further away.

Also, nobody would describe that as 'Victoria' as it's smack in Westminster and close to the Abbey and Westminster tube, but never mind that. Photo below. Stop making stuff up when it's so easily debunked.

 

[LondonJohn]

It was from Old Queen Street and it was a very good view.

Except that Old Queen St is slap-bang in the heart of Westminster (the district, that is - as opposed to the much larger local council area).

I've never, ever heard it referred to as being in Victoria. Which will be because it's not in Victoria.

Furthermore, there are no buildings on Old Queen St which are anywhere near tall enough to give occupants a view over the Treasury and FCO to even see the front facade of 10 Downing St, let alone to see right through 10 Downing St itself and into the back garden (which is the vicinity in which the shells landed and detonated).

Oh what a tangled web we weave........


ETA: HAHA ninja'd in extreme detail by GlennB! Sheeple minds think alike.

 

[Vixen]

So a loose 55 ton visor slammed against the bow by waves could not make a sound anyone might mistake for an explosion or a collision? That's another of your laws of physics, is it?

Think about it, the ship is 327 times bigger than the bow visor. and stretches 155 m. Survivors who were at the other end of the ship - where the cafeteria was - heard or felt a definite sensation of a crash or an explosion.

The youngest survivor from Estonia was 12-year-old Mats . He was on his way with his family and lost four of his family members. This is what he said about the night in the public documents of the commission of inquiry.
Mats woke up to falling from the bed. At the same time, others woke up. There were a lot of people in the hallway. Mats ran up the stairs.

- I was at a karaoke bar with a friend when I heard an unusual sound. I thought it sounded like an explosion. I left immediately. It was a matter of seconds or minutes to get out. That ship collapsed so quickly and no one came to help.
Altti Hakanpää

Paul, 35, England 80. Sara, 20, Sweden
Were sleeping on the couches in the cafe as they woke up to the bang, the rattling of the dishes, and the tipping of the chairs.

 

[Vixen]

Except that Old Queen St is slap-bang in the heart of Westminster (the district, that is - as opposed to the much larger local council area).

I've never, ever heard it referred to as being in Victoria. Which will be because it's not in Victoria.

Furthermore, there are no buildings on Old Queen St which are anywhere near tall enough to give occupants a view over the Treasury and FCO to even see the front facade of 10 Downing St, let alone to see right through 10 Downing St itself and into the back garden (which is the vicinity in which the shells landed and detonated).

Oh what a tangled web we weave........

I'll thank you to stop harassing me.

 

[LondonJohn]

Just for info, the UK Dept of Transport report on Herald of Free Enterprise says "The HERALD passed the outer mole at 18.24. She capsized about four minutes later. During the final moments the HERALD turned rapidly to starboard and was prevented from sinking totally by reason only that her port side took the ground in shallow water."

Interesting, no? Maybe the DoT haven't heard of Archimedes principle, as their report seems quite clear grounding was the only reason Herald did not sink entirely.

Linkie: https://assets.publishing.service.g...estigation_HeraldofFreeEnterprise-MSA1894.pdf

Duh, it's about the laws of physics, silly! Wake up and smell the roses! And stick it to Da Man - after all, everybody knows that all governments (except the Finnish one) are institutionally and venally corrupt. It's so sad that you're one of the sheeple.

 

[Vixen]

To the SW of Downing St, 3 or 4 storeys max in the style of that area, with no view whatsoever to the gardens of #10, which are to the N of #10. I assumed you were in a high-rise office block in Victoria, and further away.

Also, nobody would describe that as 'Victoria' as it's smack in Westminster and close to the Abbey and Westminster tube, but never mind that. Photo below. Stop making stuff up when it's so easily debunked.

Stop trolling me, it is very tiresome.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

A 55-tonne bow visor cannot make an 18,000 (0.003:1) cause a big bang or cause it to lurch violently when it is attached to the vessel, even if loose.

So a 1lb hammer can't make a loud bang on a 100lb anvil?

If the visors hinges broke it would still be hooked over the top of the ramp which would stop it falling away immediately even if all its fixings failed. And a large wave could certainly slam it against the bow and also cause the ship to lurch.

 

[Steve]

Except that Old Queen St is slap-bang in the heart of Westminster (the district, that is - as opposed to the much larger local council area).

I've never, ever heard it referred to as being in Victoria. Which will be because it's not in Victoria.

Furthermore, there are no buildings on Old Queen St which are anywhere near tall enough to give occupants a view over the Treasury and FCO to even see the front facade of 10 Downing St, let alone to see right through 10 Downing St itself and into the back garden (which is the vicinity in which the shells landed and detonated).

Oh what a tangled web we weave........


ETA: HAHA ninja'd in extreme detail by GlennB! Sheeple minds think alike.

Some people just have no concept of a good time to stop digging.

 

[Steve]

I'll thank you to stop harassing me.

Stop trolling me, it is very tiresome.

Correcting painfully obvious errors (to be charitable) is neither harassment nor trolling.

 

[LondonJohn]

I'll thank you to stop harassing me.

I'm actually attacking your "arguments" and claims. Using, y'know, facts.

If you don't want anyone to point out the fatal flaws in your claims, then.... I dunno.... it might be a good idea if you stopped making things up.

Notandum: for this advisory service, there is no charge.

 

[Vixen]

Some people just have no concept of a good time to stop digging.

Enso Publication Papers Ltd
35 Old Queen Street, SW1H 9JA (relocated to Kent)


That is where I worked and if you don't like it tough titties.

 

[Vixen]

I'm actually attacking your "arguments" and claims. Using, y'know, facts.

If you don't want anyone to point out the fatal flaws in your claims, then.... I dunno.... it might be a good idea if you stopped making things up.

Notandum: for this advisory service, there is no charge.

If you and your chums don't stop your mobbing I am going to leave.

 

[JayUtah]

If you and your chums don't stop your mobbing I am going to leave.

Oh, please! Not that!

 

[GlennB]

I'll thank you to stop harassing me.

Stop trolling me, it is very tiresome.

We have both spoken the truth. You have not.

 

[Vixen]

Ah well no, because 1) the closest part of Victoria to Downing Street is just under a mile away, 2) the "cannon going off" was actually an improvised mortar attack from a van parked up on Whitehall, and 3) as such, I very strongly question your claimed recollection. Which, inadvertently (on your part) just goes to show that the claimed recollections of claimed witnesses - especially those with no experience or expertise in the field - can very often be wildly unreliable (regardless of the sincerity of the "recollection").

As a further illustration of relevance, my father - a fairly senior military officer and diplomat - was actually working on that day in his corner office of the Banqueting House* on Whitehall, no more than 20-30 yards from the parked-up position of the van from which the mortars were fired. Despite very good familiarity with ordnance and explosions, he thought the noise of the three mortars being fired was just a vehicle backfiring (although he immediately recognised the depth and reverberation of the three shells as they landed as explosive detonations). Even experienced people can have trouble correctly identifying these sorts of things, if they take place totally unexpectedly - especially if direct eyesight of the event doesn't take place, and the event is only heard.


* Bonus fun fact for history fans: the Banqueting House has a long and storied history; its major "claim to fame" is that it was the scene of the execution (beheading) of King Charles I in *double-checks for accuracy* 1649, on a makeshift scaffold set up in Whitehall outside the building.

Contrary to your claims, I heard the explosions and saw the smoke and saw the startled workman clinging on the scaffolding. And I saw it from my office window at Old Queen Street, SW1.

 

[LondonJohn]

A 55-tonne bow visor cannot make an 18,000 (0.003:1) cause a big bang or cause it to lurch violently when it is attached to the vessel, even if loose. Once it came off it immediately sank. It is not bowl-shaped so that it can float. The vertical dent in its nose could have been caused by it making contact with the bulbous bow.

The violent lurch from which the Estonia could not recover was as a result of a massive influx of water as a probable result of being hit by a submarine or timed explosives, given it happened at midnight Swedish time - midway through its journey and in international waters, where any submarine can lurk - and ex-RN diver and expert in military explosives, Brian Braidwood identified signs of an explosion in the bow bulkhead and pointed out devices showing up in the Rockwater videos.

Also, it doesn't fit the time line as given by JAIC.

The detachment of the bow visor isn't what caused the ship to lurch. The ingress of a very large volume/mass of seawater around the now-broken front ramp and onto the vehicle deck is what caused the ship to lurch. This amount of seawater (which weighs slightly more than one ton per cubic metre) coming into the open-plan vehicle deck would have quickly destabilised the ship very significantly, in terms of both trim and buoyancy*. And once the seawater had found a low spot, more and more additional seawater would have piled problem upon problem. And as soon as the ship pitched more than around 25-30 degrees to the side, the decks vehicles would in turn have started to slide (and eventually roll) to that same side. It would quickly have become a vicious circle with only one possible outcome: the sinking of the ship.


* Just like (can you guess?) Herald of Free Enterprise.

 

[Vixen]

We have both spoken the truth. You have not.

Seriously, do I keep making snide and unpleasant comments about your posts as a matter of course? You have zero reason to conduct your campaign of trolling me.