The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

[Andy_Ross]

Re: Cart Reitmaan's eye witness account of seeing something white, or bright, moving away from the ship as he looked over the rails after running up from his cabin in Deck 1, which was below the waterline, because of water coming into his cabin.

He was surprised when some Finnish police made their way to Estonia to question him specifically about his sighting.

Here's a submarine that fits that description:



Pictured: a Russian Former Soviet Union mini-submarine in use in the 1990's.

And a K-278 Komosomolets, which I believe now lies at the bottom of the Norwegian Sea encased in concrete.

Hahahaha

 

[Vixen]

A ship is designed to be supported along it's full hull length not by the middle.

It will sag and the hull will fracture and tear.
It happens to ships that aren't supported correctly in dry dock and to ships not loaded correctly.
Estonia was supported midships and the ends sagged. that is where the hole came from. It is a tear.

So how come a Swedish guy who claims he was one of the divers called to do the initial recce told Swedish newspapers in 1999 and is on record, that he saw a hole in the starboard?

Shouldn't the JAIC have investigated this?

So, if this guy was one of the divers involved in the report produced Dec 1994, when the wreck was just a couple of months old, it cannot have been caused by wear and tear.

I am not sure I believe him but I believe he is speaking on behalf of a diver who actually was there but bound by confidentiality clauses, such as an Official Secrets Act. Andi Meister, the guy who was appointed head of the Estonian section of the JAIC and overall Head of the committee, and who resigned later, wrote in a book that the divers reported back that Captain Andresson appeared to have been shot in the head.

The more one investigates this matter, the more I am inclined to think Jutta Rabe, German investigative journalist and scriptwriter, has stumbled on some kind of truth here.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Oh course people know, to be able to describe it. I lived in London when the IRA had their bombing campaigns. I was actually working at an office in Victoria when I had a bird's eye view of the cannon going off in the erstwhile PM John Major's back yard at No. 10 Downing street. I looked out of the window at the commotion to see a startled workman hanging on to scaffold for dear life having almost fallen off in fright. Likewise, people recognise when something has collided.

Of course, the survivors of the Estonia might have been mistaken but that doesn't mean their eye witness accounts should be ignored and not investigated.

Calculate it for yourself: 29 out of 137 survivors.

Who have never heard an explosion on a ship or in all probability any kind of explosion at all, or for that matter ever experienced a collision at sea.

 

[Vixen]

What's correct? That the laws of physics work differently below sea level?

Or that you claimed that a named individual personally dived the wreck and removed a portion of the hull, when that individual not only didn't dive the wreck, but in fact he had nothing whatsoever to do with the expedition to dive the wreck (and instead was merely asked to conduct a desk review)?

Which one?

My comment 'Braidwood retrieved a couple of bits of metal from the wreck' is not a demonstration of my being wrong.

 

[GlennB]

Oh course people know, to be able to describe it. I lived in London when the IRA had their bombing campaigns. I was actually working at an office in Victoria when I had a bird's eye view of the cannon going off in the erstwhile PM John Major's back yard at No. 10 Downing street. I looked out of the window at the commotion to see a startled workman hanging on to scaffold for dear life having almost fallen off in fright.

That's intriguing. Those gardens are to the N of Downing St, while the area known as Victoria is to the SW of Downing St and around 1km away. There is no plausible line of sight. Are you sure it was Victoria?

 

[Vixen]

BTW, I'm interested (and in no small way amused) in the fact that - as per Vixen's version of events - the Finnish authorities and individuals tend (perhaps without exception) to be the noble, fair-minded actors in the drama.

Sheer coincidence, I'm sure.

Finland is consistently found to rank top or near top of world rankings in non-corruption (- this refers to whether officials can be bribed, are generally honest and open). I have found this to be generally true. If they have an appointment they turn up exactly on time - no waiting at home all afternoon for a workman or delivery that never turns up.

The Estonian Prime Minister Laar, in the 1990's did a 'mystery shopper' with his customs officials and discovered every single one of them accepted a bribe.

 

[Steve]

My comment 'Braidwood retrieved a couple of bits of metal from the wreck' is not a demonstration of my being wrong.

Only if you use a definition of "wrong" that most people are unfamiliar with.

 

[Steve]

This thread has become thoroughly entertaining.

 

[gabeygoat]

Oh course people know, to be able to describe it. I lived in London when the IRA had their bombing campaigns. I was actually working at an office in Victoria when I had a bird's eye view of the cannon going off in the erstwhile PM John Major's back yard at No. 10 Downing street. I looked out of the window at the commotion to see a startled workman hanging on to scaffold for dear life having almost fallen off in fright.

Surel, most people in the world didn't experience that event first hand.

 

[Vixen]

Who have never heard an explosion on a ship or in all probability any kind of explosion at all, or for that matter ever experienced a collision at sea.

Every time an IRA bomb went off in Central London I recognised it for what it was immediately. People use a lot of dynamite around here to break up granite, of which there is quite a lot - I always recognise the sound.

Carl Ovberg was a survivor who also saw the military trucks loading onto the ship. He arrived late at the port in a taxi when he was held up by military police who made him wait as an escorted couple of military trucks were loaded into the car deck. He alighted from the taxi and was the last foot passenger to arrive, so like Sara Hedrenius, he, too witnessed the military cargo on board. Neither of them can understand why the Swedish Army has never confirmed this. Anyway Carl Ovberg's updated statement of 1997 reads, [extact]:

Carl Övberg - cabin 1049:

- at about 22.30 hours (Swedish time) down to the cabin and to bed;
- he woke up suddenly from the strong noise of rushing water which he could hear from both sides, but loudest from starboard side; these noises alarmed him;
- in addition he heard quite strong metallic banging noises which definitely had not been there before; he sat up in bed and put his feet on the floor, since the bed was athwartships he was facing the door looking aft;
- he lit a cigarette and listened intently to the strange and frightening noise scenario;
- after a little while he suddenly heard the starting up noise of an hydraulic pump or pumps followed by the clicking of valves and then the typical noise created by an hydraulic system under load;
- simultaneously he heard the banging of sledge hammers;
- the noises came probably from forward;
- the hydraulic under load noise faded away and came back again whilst the sledge-hammer banging noise more or less continued. Both the hydraulic noise and the sledge-hammer banging noise continued for ca. 10-15 minutes whilst the other banging noises, then heard already for some 20-25 minutes, also continued;
- the hydraulic noise and the sledge-hammer noise stopped with a short, sharp metallic crash which gave him the impression that something heavy, metallic had broken;
- after a 'silence' of 30-40 seconds the next really extreme crash followed in connection with an abrupt stopping of the ferry which was so 'sudden' that he was thrown against the front wall of his bed;
it was a short, sharp intense crash as if the ship had struck against something;
- he jumped out of his bed and put his clothes on very quickly when he realised that all the engine noises had stopped and that the ferry was now making much softer pitch movements; this must have been at about 01.00 hours.
- he rushed out of his cabin, turned right towards the stairway, around the aft part of it, through the open WT-door (watertight) towards aft, but turned around after some meters and headed forward, by now the vessel had started making sideway movements (rolling), the door at the port side of the stairway was either open or missing, and he rushed through it;
- he turned right up the stairs when his coat got caught at the beginning of the right handrail, he turned round to his right and looked over his right shoulder out through the door opening into the alleyway;
- he saw 2 goosenecks next to the cabin wall, as indicated on the drawing on the pages 517/518;
- out of these goosenecks water was streaming under great pressure, he also saw water penetrating the door forward of these goosenecks in the 3rd compartment which belonged to a cleaning room;
- he saw the water running over the floors;
- he had freed his jacket and he rushed up the stairs;
- when he was about half way up to the car deck the vessel heeled suddenly and abruptly more than 45°, probably 50° or 60°;

Note that he was on the deck below the car deck when he saw all the water on the floor. He is probably using Swedish time, one hour behind. Yet the JAIC claim the bow visor didn't fall off until 1:15 Eastern Europe Time. By 1:24 when Tammes sent out his May Day Tammes said the list was 30° - 40°, as per recordings. The boat had completely turned 90° by 1<30 according to JAIC.

I would point out that in these lower deck cabins you do hear every clunk.

Michael Oun, says he was awaken by a crash which he says he knows was about 12:02 on the dot as the battery in his travel alarm clock fell out as it landed on the floor and he put it in his pocket.

A 55 tonne bow visor against a ship weighing 18,000 tonnes isn't going to do that because it had a limited freedom of movement. It was not coming against the boat with any great speed but was subject to some heavy lapping waves which doesn't add any great velocity that would equate to the force of an explosion or a collision.

 

[junkshop]

Vixen, please pay attention to what people write:

...as described in the update, the center of the ship's mass is resting on hard rock...right where the crack is...

Evertsson says that the area in which the Estonia fell has no rocky outcrop that could have caused the side hole.

Apart from the one the ship is draped over and causing the hull to tear you mean?

That is a rocky ridge of a few metres long of where the Estonia came to rest. It's position is such, with the upside down bridge propped up against it, that the starboard side didn't come into contact with it for it to be in that position. In any case, it is a long ridge, not a pointed one.

Who said it was pointed? Who said the rocks made the hole?

No-one. No-one said this.

The theory that has been advanced over and over, and that you have repeatedly mischaracterised, ignored or hand-waved away* is that the ship is draped across a rocky outcrop from surrounding unstable clay, and the resulting deformation of the hull has stressed some of the seams to the point that they have failed.

*or possibly misunderstood

 

[RolandRat]

Really? Citation please for this claim.

I've provided the links ad nauseum. Nothing in those links state he was the mission lead, diving head, dived on the wreck. They all state exactly what I stated. He was there to review footage and lab results.

If you're going to claim otherwise then prove it. And lets leave the fanfic aside when you try to.

edit - ah what the hell. Here's one of the links again:

https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/chapter05/05-0.html

"Since he commenced working with us Lt. Commander Braidwood has made himself acquainted with the condition of the wreck and the merits of the case by prolonged watching of video footage, studying drawings and reports as well as long discussions with our expert team, where after he drew up his Investigation Report. – See Chapter 34.7 of our Report. Only thereafter, viz. in August 2000 after completion of the Rabe/Bemis diving expedition, the samples cut off the wreck were brought ashore for examination."

Long discussion, prolonged watching, studying drawings and reports. There we go.

"Lt Commander Braidwood is working from his home office in Weymouth/UK but was closely informed and received the relevant documentation – translated into English – as soon as received."

Bit hard to dive on a wreck in the Baltic from Weymouth. It's a bit of a swim.

 

[Vixen]

That's intriguing. Those gardens are to the N of Downing St, while the area known as Victoria is to the SW of Downing St and around 1km away. There is no plausible line of sight. Are you sure it was Victoria?

It was from Old Queen Street and it was a very good view.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Every time an IRA bomb went off in Central London I recognised it for what it was immediately. People use a lot of dynamite around here to break up granite, of which there is quite a lot - I always recognise the sound.

Carl Ovberg was a survivor who also saw the military trucks loading onto the ship. He arrived late at the port in a taxi when he was held up by military police who made him wait as an escorted couple of military trucks were loaded into the car deck. He alighted from the taxi and was the last foot passenger to arrive, so like Sara Hedrenius, he, too witnessed the military cargo on board. Neither of them can understand why the Swedish Army has never confirmed this. Anyway Carl Ovberg's updated statement of 1997 reads, [extact]:




Note that he was on the deck below the car deck when he saw all the water on the floor. He is probably using Swedish time, one hour behind. Yet the JAIC claim the bow visor didn't fall off until 1:15 Eastern Europe Time. By 1:24 when Tammes sent out his May Day Tammes said the list was 30° - 40°, as per recordings. The boat had completely turned 90° by 1<30 according to JAIC.

I would point out that in these lower deck cabins you do hear every clunk.

Michael Oun, says he was awaken by a crash which he says he knows was about 12:02 on the dot as the battery in his travel alarm clock fell out as it landed on the floor and he put it in his pocket.

A 55 tonne bow visor against a ship weighing 18,000 tonnes isn't going to do that because it had a limited freedom of movement. It was not coming against the boat with any great speed but was subject to some heavy lapping waves which doesn't add any great velocity that would equate to the force of an explosion or a collision.

Wow lots in here.

An bomb explosion in the distance or dynamite sound nothing like an explosion in a ship. I have experience with both.

A 55 ton weight hitting a ships hull will be a huge blow to theship, it will ring it like a bell. It will be a big bang.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Just for info, the UK Dept of Transport report on Herald of Free Enterprise says "The HERALD passed the outer mole at 18.24. She capsized about four minutes later. During the final moments the HERALD turned rapidly to starboard and was prevented from sinking totally by reason only that her port side took the ground in shallow water."

Interesting, no? Maybe the DoT haven't heard of Archimedes principle, as their report seems quite clear grounding was the only reason Herald did not sink entirely.

Linkie: https://assets.publishing.service.g...estigation_HeraldofFreeEnterprise-MSA1894.pdf

 

[Vixen]

I've provided the links ad nauseum. Nothing in those links state he was the mission lead, diving head, dived on the wreck. They all state exactly what I stated. He was there to review footage and lab results.

If you're going to claim otherwise then prove it. And lets leave the fanfic aside when you try to.

edit - ah what the hell. Here's one of the links again:

https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/chapter05/05-0.html

"Since he commenced working with us Lt. Commander Braidwood has made himself acquainted with the condition of the wreck and the merits of the case by prolonged watching of video footage, studying drawings and reports as well as long discussions with our expert team, where after he drew up his Investigation Report. – See Chapter 34.7 of our Report. Only thereafter, viz. in August 2000 after completion of the Rabe/Bemis diving expedition, the samples cut off the wreck were brought ashore for examination."

Long discussion, prolonged watching, studying drawings and reports. There we go.

"Lt Commander Braidwood is working from his home office in Weymouth/UK but was closely informed and received the relevant documentation – translated into English – as soon as received."

Bit hard to dive on a wreck in the Baltic from Weymouth. It's a bit of a swim.

As I said, more than once, the diver/s are unnamed so you don't know whether he did or did not. AFAIAC there was nothing remiss in anything I said.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... A 55 ton weight hitting a ships hull will be a huge blow to theship, it will ring it like a bell. It will be a big bang.

I dare say if the reason it hits the ship is the impact of a particularly large wave, then that will be a very big bang occurring simultaneously with the ship lurching violently.

 

[Vixen]

Wow lots in here.

An bomb explosion in the distance or dynamite sound nothing like an explosion in a ship. I have experience with both.

A 55 ton weight hitting a ships hull will be a huge blow to theship, it will ring it like a bell. It will be a big bang.

But it wasn't hitting it, was it. It was attached to the ship and when it fell off it immediately sank, being 55 tonnes. If it was swinging loose that would not be enough for it to sound like an explosion or a heavy collision as it had little freedom of movement. Sure, a seaman near the bow would have hear this but to try to make out that this was the source of the noise that survivors experience is an assumption that is not warranted IMV.

 

[Vixen]

Just for info, the UK Dept of Transport report on Herald of Free Enterprise says "The HERALD passed the outer mole at 18.24. She capsized about four minutes later. During the final moments the HERALD turned rapidly to starboard and was prevented from sinking totally by reason only that her port side took the ground in shallow water."

Interesting, no? Maybe the DoT haven't heard of Archimedes principle, as their report seems quite clear grounding was the only reason Herald did not sink entirely.

Linkie: https://assets.publishing.service.g...estigation_HeraldofFreeEnterprise-MSA1894.pdf

It didn't sink because it lay on a shallow bank on its side, partially submerged. Had someone or something opened the car ramp doors mid-sea, it would have capsized and then floated belly up, like the MS Jan Heweliusz. Well, you can't go swimming unless your body is submerged but once you are in the water, I am sure Archimedes Principle works just fine.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If it was swinging loose that would not be enough for it to sound like an explosion or a heavy collision as it had little freedom of movement.

So a loose 55 ton visor slammed against the bow by waves could not make a sound anyone might mistake for an explosion or a collision? That's another of your laws of physics, is it?