• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vixen said:
If Blue Water Recoveries had real hands-on experience in recovering the M/V Derbyshire and Lucano then I am sure it is able to state with some confidence it could manage the Estonia.
Click to expand...

Derbyshire and Lucano were not recovered.
Derbyshire is in pieces scattered over a square mile of seabed and Lucano is over 4200 meters below the surface.

Blue Water recoveries is essentially one man that does research to find wrecks so that treasure hunters can salvage valuable artifacts and cargo.
 
Vixen said:
They were sent to advise the Swedish government, amongst other things, to assess whether it could be salvaged and their assessment was, 'yes, it is feasible'.
Click to expand...

How would they know? they are not salvage experts. They are a diving support company.
 
JayUtah said:
Sure, it matters what is meant by "salvage." To raise the ship, even just to tow it to shallower waters as in the case of Ehime Maru, is a tens-of-millions proposition. To simply dive on the wreck and recover human remains and other valuables from accessible areas is still at least another zero beyond $40,000. I have no problem with a company doing something pro bono. But why such a pittance? Why just not donate the entire effort for free?

If someone offers you a brand new Mercedes for $1, you're likely to think there's some sort of catch. It's not a credible offer, if everything's on the level. Therefore if you're unable to discover what the catch might be, the safe bet is to reject the offer in case you might be embroiled in something you didn't intend. While that's the safe bet, you're still vulnerable to criticism like, "Hey, that guy passed up a $1 luxury car!"

And unnamed "Norwegian dive company" collaborated with Evertsson on his film. Coincidentally there's an unnamed "Norwegian dive company" offering a salvage deal that's simply too good to pass up -- a $1 Mercedes of an offer. One wonders whether the offer was tendered for no reason other than to create suspicion when it was naturally rejected. "They passed up a killer deal to have the wreck salvaged; there must be something nefarious going on."
Click to expand...

It is a commercial company so I expect it couldn't actually run at a loss but reasoned they would volunteer to bring up the bodies and the Swedish government could share the costs. Seems fair to me. A company has to cover its operating costs.
 
Vixen said:
It is a commercial company so I expect it couldn't actually run at a loss but reasoned they would volunteer to bring up the bodies and the Swedish government could share the costs. Seems fair to me. A company has to cover its operating costs.
Click to expand...
Do you have any prior experience in the costs associated with underwater recovery?
 
Vixen said:
As for Blue Water Recoveires, yes, it is a commercial company so needs to run on a profit. The owner is one of the most respected of his field in the military world of locating and recovering wrecks.
Click to expand...

He has never 'recovered' a wreck. He researches the location of wrecks.
What is the 'military world of recovering wrecks'?


Obvious re Smit Tak each job would have to be carried out on its own merits. If the Ehime Maru took two barges, then it is a case of increasing the number and strength of the barges and derricks. It's called project management. You do the decision tree as to whether something is feasible and you do the maths to evaluate probability of sucess and likely cost and time taken.
Click to expand...

Smit tak specialise in cutting wrecks in to sections.

Ehime Maru was not a project they worked on. It was not raised, it was moved. Its weight was 700grt, it's lenght around 50m, not 15,000grt and 150m.

Stop trying to pretend it was because it was not possible, because you are simply using sophistry based on nothing but being contrary for the sake of it.
Click to expand...

Then show how it would be possible to bring it up?
Where has a vessel of that size been raised in one piece?
I am sure it could be done if it was cut in to sections and the salvagers were given many millions and a year or so to do it.
 
Vixen said:
As I said, the devices Braidwood spotted might have been left by the Swedish Navy during their reccy. They did remove a few panels you know and did some welding.
Click to expand...

Why would the Swedish navy leave live ordnance on the wreck?
 
I viewed a Youtube video interview of Paul Barney last night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl07Y3mDqHo

He is a compelling witness because his story hasn't changed in 28 years. He is clear about what is his opinion and what is fact. That night he first thought they'd hit rocks. In the following years he believed a bomb was possible, but with therapy he let that idea go.

He claims he saw the bow-cover intact as the shipped bobbed in the sea before it sank. The problem is that other survivors claim they climbed down the back of the exposed car ramp to reach the water.

Hypothermia and shock do not make for accurate memories.
 
Axxman300 said:
If you are referring to the MS Zenobia you have failed. She had a pump-software failure. Her bow-cover is still right where it belongs on the front of the ship:rolleyes:.

Fun fact: Nobody died on the MS Zenobia, and it is one of the top-10 dive sites in the world. So much so it even has its own Facebook page.

MS Zenobia sank in calm water, not in a raging storm. Other than it was a Ro-Ro ferry a year older than Estonia it was nothing like the German-made ferry.

Please try to focus.
Click to expand...

WHY HAS NO ONE SALVAGED/RECOVERED THE MS ZENOBIA! I mean its so cheap to do so according to Vixen! Shes in only 42m of water. Theres no international treaty against it. Why does no one raise her for the gigantic profits they would surely make (£200 million worth of cargo per Wiki)?! I think the conspiracy has just widened yet again.
 
Last edited:
Axxman300 said:
First off, you have just stated the bow-cover failing was the cause of the sinking, which is what happens when you paint yourself into a corner and then solve the problem with more paint.

Second, the ship builder backed the "documentary" team's expedition to survey the wreck. Why? Because in 2019 they found themselves back in court:

https://www.nautilusint.org/en/news-insight/news/estonia-shipwreck-disaster-in-court-after-25-years/



The claim was later rejected by the French Court:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/international/2019/07/22/533478.htm



The bold print underlines a wonderfully French-legal way of saying it was a crappy design, but the ship-builder and the subcontractor were too dumb to notice.



It wasn't the "German Group", it was Meyer Werft. Be specific. Germany has a scary intelligence service, if Sweden was hiding the truth behind the sinking Germany would know. The new investigation should not be seen as impartial. That hole on the side is along the seam, half the metal dented outward and the other half inward suggesting a stress fracture. Again, the documentary details how the Estonia has shifted its bottom list further to port, meaning the hole, if it was there, would not have been visible in mid-1990s.

As for the "Journalist", Jutta Rabe has lost any credibility she had over her obsession with the Estonia.



If you are referring to the MS Zenobia you have failed. She had a pump-software failure. Her bow-cover is still right where it belongs on the front of the ship:rolleyes:.

Fun fact: Nobody died on the MS Zenobia, and it is one of the top-10 dive sites in the world. So much so it even has its own Facebook page.

MS Zenobia sank in calm water, not in a raging storm. Other than it was a Ro-Ro ferry a year older than Estonia it was nothing like the German-made ferry.

Please try to focus.
Click to expand...

No, it was a 'Princess Something or Other' name escapes me for now.

I don't think it is a bad thing that Meyer Werft disputed liability for the accident because as you know, claims assessors are some of the most diligent investigators, simply die to the sheer number of people who make fraudulent claims. Thus they hire the best investigators and will strongly dispute an insurance claim if they are adaman they are not at fault. IMV Hummel, acting for Meyer Werft, was quite right and well within professional bounds to look closely at whether the bow visor had been properly maintained or was in a fit state. If you crash your car, it doesn't matter if its a Rolls Royce if you have driven it with bald tyres, the wrong coolant, worn brakes and it hasn't had a road test for years, then the insurer will hire the likes of Hummel to dispute their was anything wrong with the car design or build but that it was negligence by the people who owned it.

As for the French Court, there is an element of luck at the end of the day as to whose side the judge will take. On another day, it might have taken the claimants' side. Unfortunately, courts do tend to prefer the 'expert witnesses' such as Hummel, who are presumed to know their profession inside out.
 
Vixen said:
A Norwegian diving company Stolt Comex who happened to be in Turku at the time (11 Oct 1994) offered to salvage all bodies on an expenses only basis.

They were specialist divers.
Click to expand...


Comex were French, they became part of Stolt in 92 but were more or less still a separate company. They specialised in Saturation Diving which they helped to pioneer.

They may have offered their services at cost but they would have had no way of knowing if it was possible before they visited the wreck itself and did a survey.
 
JayUtah said:
You're still not addressing my reasons. Further, Evertsson admitted he had a preferred narrative. Presenting straw-man opposing viewpoints doesn't relieve him of that.
Click to expand...

He is an investigative journalist who was a small boy when the accident happened. He just became interested in getting to the truth of the matter. Like a good journalist should.
 
Axxman300 said:
It does.

The ramp wasn't leaking until AFTER the loud noise caused from the bow-cover being damaged by a large wave.
Click to expand...

Then why did the crew keep a store of blankets and mattresses near the ramp.

The JAIC never even questioned whether the boat was in good condition maintenance wise. It simply claimed the vessel was seaworthy.
 
Vixen said:
Some people volunteer when there is a disaster.
Click to expand...

You were referring to raising the wreck. Do you think that any company would put an open ended offer out to tie up one of their DSVs for many months for no fee?
There is a reason that it costs upwards of 20K a day to charter a DSV for saturation diving.
 
JayUtah said:
The media reports that Evertsson also used a Norwegian dive team. Was it the same one that made the ridiculously low-ball bid for salvage?
Click to expand...

Doubt it very much. Evertsson was technically breaking the law as a Swedish citizen in the Estonia space (and was charged but acquitted some years later). Germany and Norway were not signatories to the treaty so I dare say that is why Evertsson used Germans, Norwegians and Americans.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
What experience do policemen have with sinking ships?

I would expect the bangs to come first before the ship started to take an excessive roll.
It wouldn't start to take a list until after it couldn't recover from a roll.
Until sufficient water was in to stop the roll it would be rolling from port to starboard with an increasing angle as the water washed from side to side on the car deck, remember we already discussed 'free surface effect'.

Why would any noises from the bow visor come from above?
Click to expand...

Police are trained to be observant even under stress.

Why would you imagine an umble hengineer is more reliable than a police officer as a witness? 29 survivors all provided the same sequence of events. The junior trainee boatswain, Silver Linde was the JAIC star witness, changed his story more times than Jackanory, and was later jailed nine years for drug smuggling (which indicates he wasn't just selling weed on a street corner). So I think I prefer the testimony of random independent members of the public just going about their every day affairs with zero reason to tell porkie pies.

One crew member said the crew were threatened with dismissal if they uttered anything that could damage the reputation of the ferry line.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom