• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

Status
Not open for further replies.
Or Vixen either a) pulled an imaginary (though, as you say, unwittingly wildly improbable) financial number out of thin air, in order to try to lend credibility to the claim; b) wholly misinterpreted something she'd read somewhere, and wrongly determined that it comprised an offer to "salvage" the vessel; or c) made up part or whole of the "offer to salvage" story altogether.

None of those three possibilities would be especially surprising.......
 
Well the ship was rolling and taking on a list.

How would explosive charges blowing the bow visor off throw them off their feet?

I have seen ships hit by missiles and bombs and the crew never got thrown off their feet if they weren't in the blast.

Don't take my word for it. On the ship were a group of 60 Swedish policemen returning from a conference (although only a small number returned). Police Officer Fägersten, who did survive related that after what she believes was a collision (=opinion), 'the vessel started to shake/vibrate at 0:45 hours the casualty sequence of events began'.

Policemen are professionally trained to be observant, note the time and the sequence of events.

The ship's accountant says she awoke to find herself on the floor of her cabin, together with the other cabin occupier, and then the vessel lurched towards starboard.

Again and again survivors said the bangs came first. Paul Barney said he was used to 'gathering information' - which is one reason he managed to escape and he was awakened on deck 7 - near the cafeteria - by a shudder and scraping noise that made him think they'd hit rocks. This clearly came from the direction of below, where one might find rocks, not from above.
 
Estonia is 150 meters long and is more than 15,000 grt Ehime Maru is less than 50 meters long and has a grt of only 700 tons.

Can you see a difference

Plus it wasn't raised it was moved to shallower water.

If Blue Water Recoveries had real hands-on experience in recovering the M/V Derbyshire and Lucano then I am sure it is able to state with some confidence it could manage the Estonia.
 
Rockwater are not a salvage company.

They are a Support company for petroleum and natural gas extraction, they are divers.

How were they proposing to raise it?

They were sent to advise the Swedish government, amongst other things, to assess whether it could be salvaged and their assessment was, 'yes, it is feasible'.
 
there you go, that supports the bow visor having problems and coming off in the storm.

Didn't you say the ship's builders were certain it couldn't have been a problem with the bow visor because they are the best of the best shipyard or something?

The fact the car ramp was leaky doesn't mean it was the cause of the sinking.
 
Okay, but that's just naming a price. My questions was: did they put together an actual *proposal*? That's what one would need to determine whether what they had in mind was actually doable, at the price they were offering.

There are valid reasons why they might not have done that (being told up front there was little interest would be one of them), and there are valid reasons we might not know if they did, but without a proposal to review, one can't assess the claim that the job was really doable.

Yes, they did. They put a proposal to the Swedish government to bring up the bodies and were turned down.
 
Derbyshire was not salvaged.

Bluewater Recoveries have never raised a ship, they are involved with researching and locating wrecks to recover valuable cargo, they are involved with 'treasure hunting'.

Rockwater are just a diving support company, they do not salvage.

Smit Tak are a salvage company.
Their two best known jobs were the Kursk and the MV Tricolor.
They have a technique involving a carbide-encrusted cutting cable used to slice a wreck into small sections of around 3000 tons that can be lifted.
They could not have raised the Estonia in anything but small pieces. It took over a year to recover the Tricolor in nine sections.

None of these companies put in a detailed proposal.

The Swedish government never put it out for tender stating right from day one it was never going to be salvaged.

As for Blue Water Recoveires, yes, it is a commercial company so needs to run on a profit. The owner is one of the most respected of his field in the military world of locating and recovering wrecks.

We decided to find the wreck (of DERBYSHIRE) and when you’re looking for deepwater wrecks, there’s only one guy you turn to, and that’s David Mearns.

Obvious re Smit Tak each job would have to be carried out on its own merits. If the Ehime Maru took two barges, then it is a case of increasing the number and strength of the barges and derricks. It's called project management. You do the decision tree as to whether something is feasible and you do the maths to evaluate probability of sucess and likely cost and time taken.

The problem wasn't bringing up the vessel. The issue was the Swedish government said no. Full stop. Period. From day one.

Stop trying to pretend it was because it was not possible, because you are simply using sophistry based on nothing but being contrary for the sake of it.
 
Another bluffed brush-off. I've given you specific, detailed reasons why I think he's wrong. Address them or admit you can't. You yourself admitted you aren't an expert in these matters, so your selective acceptance of other people's demonstrable expertise must have a different explanation. You saw a documentary and you've swallowed its premise uncritically. That's all that's happened here.



He's still wrong, and the reasons why he's still wrong are still unaddressed by you. Either address the reasons or admit that you cannot. Simply insinuating he can't be wrong because he's an expert has worn thin. He's not the only person who is qualified to evaluate damage to structures and to speculate intelligently about what might have caused them. If you can't deal with the details of such an evaluation, then you're not competent to be arguing the matter in this way.



I think that wins the prize for the most overdramatized straw man. No, of course I don't believe Prof. Amdahl should be sent to the gulag. I do believe, however, that he has erred in his evaluation of the damage to Estonia, and I've given the reasons why I believe he is in error. And I'm professionally qualified to do so.

He gave an informal opinion after being primed by a documentarian who admitted later he had a particular story to tell and so selectively presented the professor with some, but not all the evidence he had discovered. If the damage is not due to a collision, but rather to static stresses, as was clearly the other damage Evertsson found, then it might lie outside the professor's expertise. Or at best it might have primed him to think along different lines and expand his consideration of potential causes.

That is not a fair assessment of Evertsson because if you saw his documentary you'll see he went to a military explosives expert, used to assessing explosives damage, who opined - also in his informal expert opinion - that he didn't think the hole matched something that was caused by an explosion (NB: this is a different hole than the one Braidwood was interested in). Evertsson showed a negative opinion just as he showed a positive one. So I do believe he was bending over backwards to present an objective documentary.
 
The German Group refers to a group set up by marine claims investigator Werner Hummel. He is subject to professional ethics. When our client has liabilty for an accident the insurance company just has to fork up the insurance money. In this case, Meyer Werft were deemed not liable for the accident.

Hummel and the German Group of Experts hold that the vessel was not seaworthy and that the JAIC failed to investigate whether the bow visor had been properly maintained. You can even sea footage that shows a red mattress near the car ramp, as the crew had taken to the practice of trying to stop leaks of seawater by means of stuffing blankets along the ramp edges as the visor didn't align properly. The atlantic lock at the bottom of the visor had and additional bolt-type locking mechanism and the crew were in the practice of having to use a hammer to get it to bolt.

First off, you have just stated the bow-cover failing was the cause of the sinking, which is what happens when you paint yourself into a corner and then solve the problem with more paint.

Second, the ship builder backed the "documentary" team's expedition to survey the wreck. Why? Because in 2019 they found themselves back in court:

https://www.nautilusint.org/en/news-insight/news/estonia-shipwreck-disaster-in-court-after-25-years/

They question the ship’s navigability due to negligence during construction in 1979 and negligence by the classification society, which had inspected the ferry twice in 1994.

A 1997 international commission composed of Sweden, Estonia and Finland concluded that design flaws including weakness of the locks on the ship's bow doors caused the disaster. Bureau Veritas and Meyer Werft contest responsibility.

The claim was later rejected by the French Court:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/international/2019/07/22/533478.htm

But the French court in the western suburb of Nanterre threw out the claim, citing a lack of “intentional fault” attributable to either company in the case, the second-deadliest peacetime sinking of a European ship after the Titanic.

Henning Witte, a German lawyer who represents relatives in the case, told that Swedish news agency TT that the ruling was, “of course, a disappointment.”

The bold print underlines a wonderfully French-legal way of saying it was a crappy design, but the ship-builder and the subcontractor were too dumb to notice.

It was the German group, together with investigative journalists who decided to go and film the wreck for themselves and discovered the hole in the starboard side that had never even been mentioned by the JAIC, and in their view might hold the key as to why the vessel sank so quickly, another aspect the JAIC never looked at.

It wasn't the "German Group", it was Meyer Werft. Be specific. Germany has a scary intelligence service, if Sweden was hiding the truth behind the sinking Germany would know. The new investigation should not be seen as impartial. That hole on the side is along the seam, half the metal dented outward and the other half inward suggesting a stress fracture. Again, the documentary details how the Estonia has shifted its bottom list further to port, meaning the hole, if it was there, would not have been visible in mid-1990s.

As for the "Journalist", Jutta Rabe has lost any credibility she had over her obsession with the Estonia.

When a similiar vessel sank in the Medittarranean after a car deck flooding it took five hours to do so.

If you are referring to the MS Zenobia you have failed. She had a pump-software failure. Her bow-cover is still right where it belongs on the front of the ship:rolleyes:.

Fun fact: Nobody died on the MS Zenobia, and it is one of the top-10 dive sites in the world. So much so it even has its own Facebook page.

MS Zenobia sank in calm water, not in a raging storm. Other than it was a Ro-Ro ferry a year older than Estonia it was nothing like the German-made ferry.

Please try to focus.
 
What's the name of the Norwegian company? Was it the same one that collaborated with Evertsson on making his film? A mere $40,000 to raise a 15,000 grt vessel is not just not-for-profit; it doesn't even come close to covering the expenses of such an operation. As such it's not really a credible offer.

A Norwegian diving company Stolt Comex who happened to be in Turku at the time (11 Oct 1994) offered to salvage all bodies on an expenses only basis.

They were specialist divers.
 
What's the name of the Norwegian company? Was it the same one that collaborated with Evertsson on making his film? A mere $40,000 to raise a 15,000 grt vessel is not just not-for-profit; it doesn't even come close to covering the expenses of such an operation. As such it's not really a credible offer.

The guy who helped Evertsson with his film was an American, Greg Bemiss, who owns the rights to the Lusitania.

Some people had compassion for the relatives of the victims.
 
That is not a fair assessment of Evertsson because if you saw his documentary you'll see he went to a military explosives expert, used to assessing explosives damage, who opined - also in his informal expert opinion - that he didn't think the hole matched something that was caused by an explosion (NB: this is a different hole than the one Braidwood was interested in). Evertsson showed a negative opinion just as he showed a positive one. So I do believe he was bending over backwards to present an objective documentary.
You're still not addressing my reasons. Further, Evertsson admitted he had a preferred narrative. Presenting straw-man opposing viewpoints doesn't relieve him of that.
 
The guy who helped Evertsson with his film was an American, Greg Bemiss, who owns the rights to the Lusitania.

Some people had compassion for the relatives of the victims.
The media reports that Evertsson also used a Norwegian dive team. Was it the same one that made the ridiculously low-ball bid for salvage?
 
Don't take my word for it. On the ship were a group of 60 Swedish policemen returning from a conference (although only a small number returned). Police Officer Fägersten, who did survive related that after what she believes was a collision (=opinion), 'the vessel started to shake/vibrate at 0:45 hours the casualty sequence of events began'.

Policemen are professionally trained to be observant, note the time and the sequence of events.

The ship's accountant says she awoke to find herself on the floor of her cabin, together with the other cabin occupier, and then the vessel lurched towards starboard.

Again and again survivors said the bangs came first. Paul Barney said he was used to 'gathering information' - which is one reason he managed to escape and he was awakened on deck 7 - near the cafeteria - by a shudder and scraping noise that made him think they'd hit rocks. This clearly came from the direction of below, where one might find rocks, not from above.

What experience do policemen have with sinking ships?

I would expect the bangs to come first before the ship started to take an excessive roll.
It wouldn't start to take a list until after it couldn't recover from a roll.
Until sufficient water was in to stop the roll it would be rolling from port to starboard with an increasing angle as the water washed from side to side on the car deck, remember we already discussed 'free surface effect'.

Why would any noises from the bow visor come from above?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom