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Useful Idiots of the Day

I don't discourage the work of the "Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace", but they really should change their name to something more realistic--perhaps "Center for Monitoring the Impact of Unicorns".
 
I don't discourage the work of the "Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace", but they really should change their name to something more realistic--perhaps "Center for Monitoring the Impact of Unicorns".
I think they should change their name to "Center for Monitoring the Impact of Hate taught to Children". That would be more descriptive of what they actually do.

Back on-topic:

January 03, 2006

THE British aid worker kidnapped and held for three days with her parents in Gaza, had a blazing row with her captors shortly before the family was released in a back street in the dead of night, she told The Times yesterday.

As the two Palestinian gunmen who had abducted Kate Burton and her parents, Hugh, 73, and Win, 55, prepared to video their captives as a condition of their release, she burst into a tear-filled rage demanding they be set free.

“The kidnappers were getting nervous and angry and started shouting at me,” she said. “They told me I was being disrespectful, despite all the food and blankets they’d given us. I got really mad. I screamed at him, ‘Do you want me to get down on my knees and say thank you, thank you?’

“I was exhausted and started crying and crying. I told them, ‘I came to work with these people and I feel like I’ve been stabbed in the back’.”

Ms Burton, 24, continued to show mixed feelings for her captors, who had treated the hostages well and even proudly shared pictures of their own children.

“I can’t forgive them for what they did to me, but I think they will keep doing it in future. I feel sorry for these guys. Their lives are completely shattered. They’ve no freedom of movement; no family life. They can’t stay at home because they’re wanted by the Israelis and the Palestinian Authority.”
Well maybe they shouldn't be terrorists and terrorize Israelis or kidnap foreigners like you Kate...maybe that is why they're "wanted by the Israelis and the Palestinian Authority".

January 03, 2006

“From the start they were saying, ‘Please don’t be frightened. Tell your parents not to worry.’ They kept saying we’d be freed in a few hours. But after a while we didn’t believe the guy because he said so many things.”

The kidnappers soon tired of holding the family and simply wanted to be rid of them.

Ms Burton expressed her own guilt at having taken her parents to Gaza, despite Foreign Office travel advice not to make such a visit. “I feel really, really guilty,” she said. “I feel irresponsible. I’m the one who lives there and should have known better. I wanted them to see it was safe and feel a bit calmer about where I lived. But I’ve given them their worst Christmas and their worst holiday ever.
Ya...taking mom and pop on a sightseeing tour of Gaza where islamist gunmen and terrorists rule the streets was a really stupid idea for an un-armed British female WASP.


January 03, 2006

However, Ms Burton, who also speaks Hebrew and worked on a kibbutz, plans to stay in the region and hopes to go on working for the Palestinian people. But she does not plan to return to Gaza.

“I’m concerned about my own personal security,” she said. “I don’t know if my life would be at risk. I want to stay working with the Palestinian people. I think I couldn’t be anywhere else. I’d feel guilty if I turned my back on them.”
 
They found that the Palestinian Authority schoolbooks incite hatred, violence and anti-Semitism. They found through analysis over the past six or seven years that Palestinian Authority schoolbooks de-legitimized Israel as a state and Israel is portrayed as a foreign colonial occupier. The Palestinian Authority schoolbooks do not even show Israel's existence on school maps which only show "Palestine". Instead of seizing an opportunity to educate future generations of Palestinians to live with Israel in peace, the PA has done everything in its power to teach hatred to young minds.

You are free not believe me Orwell...you are free to go to The Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace website and read the schoolbook reports for yourself. All I would say is if you do it then you may understand something you obviously know nothing about.

Because it is drilled into their heads as a child, see: above. And when they are old enough it is drilled into their heads as adults.

The Middle East Media Research Institute:


They found that the Palestinian Authority official media and public sermons ALSO incited hatred and violence, they deligitimized Israel and are entirely anti-Semitic. Here is one such official Friday sermon on Palestinian Authority TV....this is after how many peace treaties the PA signed with Israel? Yet this is what the PA shows and pays for on their TV stations in 2005! Even under Abbas.

I think you get the picture without me quoting all of this ******** garbage.

This is why the Palestinians have taken such an extremist path, because they are taught to. Like I said before don't believe me, go to the Middle East Media Research Institute and the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace websites for yourself and read the reports in detail. They do all the hard work for you and translate the Palestinian schoolbooks and media into english with pretty pictures and streaming videos to boot.

Then come back to this debate Orwell actually "informed".

Why do you assume that I don't know about that crap? I wanted to know what Freakshow and Mycroft know. By the way, could you please give us some examples of what's on Israeli school books? I don't have any, but I know enough about human nature and the way how history is taught to kids to be able to speculate with a certain degree of certitude... I'm pretty sure that Israeli school books are filled with nationalist hokum. I wonder how many pages Israeli school books consecrate to the terrorism of the Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi groups? Of course, that doesn't excuse present day Palestinian terrorism, but it sure puts some perspective on the whole deal...

Why do you have so much trouble simply admitting that Israel has done its share of stupid things in this conflict? You sound like you want people to be convinced that it's all the Palestinian's fault.
 
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Why do you assume that I don't know about that crap?
This is why.

By the way, could you please give us some examples of what's on Israeli school books?
Meanwhile just a few short posts ago...

The Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace has published 10 reports to-date on the following countries in the region: Egypt, Israel, Palestinian National Authority (PNA), Saudi Arabia and Syria.
...and this is why...

I'm pretty sure that Israeli school books are filled with nationalist hokum.

Which pretty well validates that you've never read the reports at The Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace.

You sound like you want people to be convinced that it's all the Palestinian's fault.
Strawman #1,234.
 
Euromutt, can you show us any pics of women wearing the kaffiya? I'm having a few second-thoughts now after I told Perforatu he was wrong about assuming that checkered headdress was common among the population in palestine, and I said the females don't wear them, but I'm looking around now in more detail to see if that is really the case...

an-najah-women.jpg

No B/W or Red or Green Keffiyas anywhere in this picture --- I'll keep searching and see if something pops up elsewhere. Now I'm curious to see where this leads...

webfusion, I notice the boy is wearing green on his head, so I guess he must be a cub scout jihadist, but I notice a woman in the front wearing green. Is she also a jihadist, or does that indicate that she's mourning a jihadist, or what exactly?

webfusion, btw, your sanity and empathy have changed my mind about military people. I didn't think it was possible for a solider to have either of those qualites.
 
Reminds me of Giuliana Sgrena thanking her captors for "treating me well and respecting me."
 
Which pretty well validates that you've never read the reports at The Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace.
No, I've never read those reports. I knew about Palestinian school books from other sources. How do I know that the "The Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace" is legit? By the way, if Israeli school books are neutral on this subject, cool, I don't mind being wrong about this... But still, do Israeli school books talk about the terrorism of the Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi groups? It should also be kept in mind that school is not the only place were nationalist hokum is absorbed.

Strawman #1,234.

Well then, could you please tell us how much responsibility you think the Israeli's have regarding this conflict? If you don't want to give false impressions that may lead to the building of strawmans, you should try to carefully explain your point of view to those of us who are discussing the subject with you.
 
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Why do you assume that I don't know about that crap? I wanted to know what Freakshow and Mycroft know. By the way, could you please give us some examples of what's on Israeli school books? I don't have any, but I know enough about human nature and the way how history is taught to kids to be able to speculate with a certain degree of certitude... I'm pretty sure that Israeli school books are filled with nationalist hokum. Of course, that doesn't excuse the PA, but it sure puts some perspective on the whole deal...

Why do you have so much trouble simply admitting that Israel has done its share of stupid things in this conflict? You sound like you want people to be convinced that it's all the Palestinian's fault.

Orwell,

You just spent your last few posts asking "who's doing the brainwashing?" Now you ask; "Why do you assume that I don't know about that crap?" You're being what can only be described as purposefully obtuse.

No one is saying that Israel does everything right; nor are we saying that Israel hasn't done it's share of "stupid crap". All we're trying to tell you is that Israeli action comes from a better place than Palestinian action. I shall expand on that....

You see Israel is a representative democracy which incourages open debate and protects it's minority's human rights. When Israel decides to take an action that turns out to be stupid or wrong it's leaders are held accountable by the voting public.

Palestine OTOH has been a tyranny throughout most of it's somewhat unofficial existance. What the leader says goes. Arafat took all the important decisions and was never held accountable by his people when things went south. It was Arafat who decided that the Palestinian charter would call for the destruction of "the zionist entity" over and over again. It was Arafat who encouraged the intifada and jihad. Arafat had his own brand of suicide bomber; Arafat had his own Swiss account where he stashed the billions he swiped from his people; and Arafat who signed off on the PA sponsored brainwashing that ran the gamut from televised incitement to hate filled textbooks for the kiddies.

For me the question of who to support is simple. I support the side that argues for peace consistently. The side that is an open society and encourages open debate as well as protecting the rights of their minorities. The side that does not officially codify the future destruction of the other side in their bloody charter!! :mad:

Yes I'm one of Mel's "usual suspects"; a list he makes so that he can dismiss those of us he doesn't like without addressing any of our arguments. (Mel; you won't last long on JREF with that attitude; and you can't offer to burn us all on your altar.)

The simple fact is that the Palestinian people have been oppressed by a tyrant for many decades. They've now had an election; and that's a good first step; but they have not been able to form a strong coalition government to represent their people, control their territory, and encourage an open debate. Palestinian moderates are still mainly silent because to speak out in favor of a dialog with Israel is often a death sentence.

I feel very bad for the average Palestinian. He has not got much freedom at all; and is under much pressure to conform to the jihadi majority. I don't know how to fix this situation except through peace and education. Both of which are in extremely short supply outside the walls that Israel has erected.

But those walls are necessary if Israel is to exist; and all nations have a recognised right to self-defend via control of their borders. I give Israel my support because all free peoples should support free nations everywhere. When Palestine becomes such a place I will be happy and glad to support them then in the same way I support Israel now.

-z
 
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I am not being "purposefully obtuse", I am being curious. See, debates on this subject tend to become name calling matches... So I decided to ask questions, in the hope of, for once, leading this discussion somewhere.

Now, I'd like to ask a few more questions:

For starters, has Israel committed human rights abuses in the occupied territories?
 
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I am not being "purposefully obtuse", I am being curious. See, debates on this subject tend to become name calling matches... So I decided to ask questions, in the hope of, for once, leading this discussion somewhere.

Now, I'd like to ask a few more questions:

For starters, has Israel committed human rights abuses in the occupied territories?

Oh you mean the "Jenin massacre"? :rolleyes: The real question should be "What do the Israeli people do when IDF commits human rights abuses?"
A: They investigate, prosecute, and otherwise bring offenders to justice and defeat politicians who support such abuses at the polls.

Now; have the Palestinians committed human rights abuses? Sure this thread details one such human rights abuse...but it's okay because she's sure they only kidnapped her because of the evil influence of the zionist entity. Clearly there's no need for an investigation....and surprise! No functioning Palestinian apparatus by which to investigate, prosecute, and bring these offenders to justice; much less defeat jihadists at the polls....so I guess it's a good thing she's decided not to sue eh?

-z
 
No, I've never read those reports.
I guessed as much.

I knew about Palestinian school books from other sources. How do I know that the "The Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace" is legit?
Well Orwell either the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace are perpetuating a huge hoax since 1998 or they are for real. Considering they've been around since 1998 and "have had extensive correspondence with key international organizations such as the EU, UNRWA, Council of Europe and UNESCO" leads me to conclude they are legit rather than a hoax.

But still, do Israeli school books talk about the terrorism of the Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi groups? It should also be kept in mind that school is not the only place were nationalist hokum is absorbed.
You asked

Tell me, why do you think Islamic militants are getting this much support? I want some actual analysis, not just the usual "Palestinians baaad" malarkey.
...and...

That also begs a couple of simple questions: who's been doing the brainwashing, and most importantly, why do Palestinians believe in this alleged brainwashing you're talking about?

I gave you the answer "who" and you switch gears and say:

No, I've never read those reports.

...and...

do Israeli school books talk about the terrorism of the Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi groups?

My guess is you don't like the answer.

In the 50's Americans thought the Russians were evil incarnate. Why? That is what Americans were taught in school and told by their government. Same goes for the Palestinians, they are taught in school and told by their government that Israel will eventually be destroyed, they are taught jews are evil and eventually Palestinians will be able to reclaim the homes they lost in the 1948 war with Jerusalem as their capital. Meanwhile at Hamas summer camps - this very summer - Palestinian children are taught:

Sunday, July 31, 2005

Across camp, a group of younger children -- most between 10 and 12 -- sat in a circle in the sand singing one of the "intifada songs" they learn at camp. One boy sang verses in a rolling soprano as the others joined in on the one-word chorus.

"We don't want to sleep.

HA-A-MAS!

We want revenge.

HA-A-MAS!

Raise it up.

HA-A-MAS!

Rifle fire.

HA-A-MAS!

If it will take a thousand martyrs.

HA-A-MAS!

Kill Zionists.

HA-A-MAS!

Wherever they are.

HA-A-MAS!

In the name of God.

HA-A-MAS!"

Such activities prompt Israeli officials to look harshly at the camps...

So what's in Israeli schoolbooks is irrelevant to your questions:

Tell me, why do you think Islamic militants are getting this much support? I want some actual analysis, not just the usual "Palestinians baaad" malarkey.
...and...

That also begs a couple of simple questions: who's been doing the brainwashing, and most importantly, why do Palestinians believe in this alleged brainwashing you're talking about?
 
Now; have the Palestinians committed human rights abuses? Sure this thread details one such human rights abuse...but it's okay because she's sure they only kidnapped her because of the evil influence of the zionist entity. Clearly there's no need for an investigation....and surprise! No functioning Palestinian apparatus by which to investigate, prosecute, and bring these offenders to justice; much less defeat jihadists at the polls....so I guess it's a good thing she's decided not to sue eh?
A good point that bookends my earlier post.
 
I am not being "purposefully obtuse",

Okay, strike out "purposefully".

I'm pretty sure that Israeli school books are filled with nationalist hokum.

"Pretty sure" in this case is Orwell-speak for "I've never in my life seen an israeli schoolbook, have no idea what they say, cannot read a word of Hebrew, but will make vague accusations anyway".

So, in Orwell's world, there is a moal equivalence between:

1). Actual, verifiable, claims in actual Palestinian text books that call for the death of the jews, the destruction of israel, repeat blood libels about them, and so on, and...

2). Vauge, undefined "nationalist hokum"--i.e., any sort of patriotism whatever--that Orwell doesn't even know exists, but is "pretty sure" must be around somewhere exists in some israeli schoolbook, despite the fact that he's never seen an israeli schoolbook in his life, and wouldn't be able to read it if he had.

You're a moral idiot, Orwell.
 
Orwell keeps claiming he wants "actual evidence" of Palestinian brainwashing, not "just the usual Palestinians bad" malarky. But when he is presented with just such evidence, and in spades, he ignores it, or claims it is biased, or says israel does the same thing, or any of a million other excuses.

He simply doesn't want to know the truth.
 
Why do you assume that I don't know about that crap?

Because you’re constantly demonstrating your ignorance.

By the way, could you please give us some examples of what's on Israeli school books? I don't have any, but I know enough about human nature and the way how history is taught to kids to be able to speculate with a certain degree of certitude... I'm pretty sure that Israeli school books are filled with nationalist hokum.

You see, you’re given solid evidence that the Palestinians put anti Israeli propaganda in their textbooks, then you take it on faith with absolutely no evidence that the Israelis must do the same.

You’re manufacturing equivalence out of your imagination. You take it on faith that every Palestinian wrong must have an equivalent Israeli wrong, and this “feeling” of yours is so strong that you’re willing to take it for the only possible legitimate position no matter what evidence is presented to you that contradicts it.

It’s very important to you to believe that the only legitimate unbiased opinion is that both the Israelis and Palestinians share equal blame, that you totally reject the idea that anyone could have studied the conflict and come to a conclusion that mostly favors the Israelis.
 
Orwell keeps claiming he wants "actual evidence" of Palestinian brainwashing, not "just the usual Palestinians bad" malarky. But when he is presented with just such evidence, and in spades, he ignores it, or claims it is biased, or says israel does the same thing, or any of a million other excuses.

He simply doesn't want to know the truth.


It's like creationism, only applied to politics. He starts with the "correct" truth, that the conflict is driven equally by both sides, who are equally at fault, and anything that doesn't with that "truth" just gets rejected, its proponants dismissed as "partisan hacks".

It would be fun, in a dark-humor sort of way, to write a history book that takes the position that everyone is equally responsible for everything. Could you make Armenians equally responsible as Stalin for their genocide?
 
It would be fun, in a dark-humor sort of way, to write a history book that takes the position that everyone is equally responsible for everything.
People try to find some sort of moral equivalence to rationalize the Mid East conflict. Israel must be doing something bad for the Palestinians to be doing something bad I often hear.

First let me start of by saying it is obvious that the Palestinian people are not simply war-mongering, bomb-making terrorists. And it is obvious that the occupation and settlements are an obstacle to peace. But there are large portions of the Palestinian population who do support war-mongering, bomb-making terrorists, who do infact war-monger and make bombs... which is far deadlier and a much greater obstacle to peace.

Case in point:

Friday, 16 December 2005, 10:56 GMT

The Palestinian electoral commission said that in the biggest city, Nablus, Hamas took 73% of the vote, while the mainstream Fatah organisation took 13%.
(note: the population of urban Nablus is just over 100,000 people and Nablus district has around 205,000 people) So if 73% of the Palestinian population in Nablus freely support a party who is recognized by the EU, US, Canada and Israel as war-mongering, bomb-making terrorists then perhaps looking for some moral equivalence to rationalize the Mid East conflict is the wrong way to go. That has always been my position.

Let's look at the past 100 years in war-mongering and bomb-making terrorism as it applies to the equivalence argument.

Prior to Israel's existence war-mongering, bomb-making terrorists like Haj Amin al-Husseini attacked zionists and actually conspired with Hitler to do his dirty work in Palestine. The moral equivalence argument to rationalize that is “the Zionists had no claim to the land and were nothing more than European colonialists".

When Israel was formed in '48 the Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon invaded causing a big-time war. The moral equivalence argument to rationalize that is “the United Nations unjustly partitioned Palestine the zionists had no right to create the State of Israel".

The PLO and Fatah - both terror organizations - were formed prior to '67, from '49-67 Gaza, the West Bank plus East Jerusalem were in Arab/Palestinian hands yet the war-mongering, bomb-making terrorists still attacked Israel. The moral equivalence argument to rationalize those pre-1967 events is "well the zionists unfairly stole Palestinian land when they established Israel in 1948 scattering Palestinians and denying the Palestinians a right to self-determination".

After 1967 Gaza, the West Bank plus East Jerusalem became Israeli and the war-mongering, bomb-making terrorists still attacked Israel.

Then, after a few wars Arafat was finally elected leader of the Palestinians and allowed to return to "Palestine", he promptly signed several peace treaties with Israel yet the war-mongering, bomb-making terrorists still attacked Israel. The moral equivalence argument to rationalize those attacks is " the violence is an understandable and legitimate reaction to Israel's occupation".

Well Arafat died, Israel abandoned Gaza, the Palestinians elected Abbas, Abbas pledged a hundred times to stop the terror yet the war-mongering, bomb-making terrorists are still attacking Israel. The moral equivalence argument to rationalize that is "The PA can't control the situation in Gaza OR the West Bank until Israel stops occupying the West Bank".

Israel must be doing something bad for the Palestinians to be doing something bad...the moral equivalence argument. The irony is it can be demonstrated that the war-mongering and bomb-making by Palestinian militants occurs pre-Israel, post-Israel, pre-occupation, post-occupation, pre-peace treaties, post-peace treaties and pre-disengagement from Gaza and post-disengagement from Gaza....and there is always some Israeli reason for the war-mongering and bomb-making by Palestinian militants.
 
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People try to find some sort of moral equivalence to rationalize the Mid East conflict. Israel must be doing something bad for the Palestinians to be doing something bad I often hear.

You probably remember about a year ago or so there was a joker named Jim Bowen who actually argued that because Iran had threatened Israel, that Israel was likely to feel animosity towards Iran, and therefore Iran needed nuclear weapons to defend itself against Israel.

That's right; because Iran threatened Israel, Iran is justified in building nuclear weapons.

That kind of woo-woo political logic drives me nuts, and it's rampant in Middle East discussions. It happens all the time, someone is presented with evidence that Palestinians are hostile to Israelis, and they mentally turn it into "evidence" that the Israelis did something to deserve it.

I can't think of another conflict where that sort of logic applies. When Janjaweed fighters burn out a black Sudanese village, does anyone take that as proof that the villagers did something to the Janjaweed to deserve it? Does anyone try to say that both parties are "equally responsible" for the conflict? No, that would be insane, yet that reasoning is used in the Israeli/Arab conflict all the time.
 
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It's like creationism, only applied to politics. He starts with the "correct" truth, that the conflict is driven equally by both sides, who are equally at fault, and anything that doesn't with that "truth" just gets rejected, its proponants dismissed as "partisan hacks".

It would be fun, in a dark-humor sort of way, to write a history book that takes the position that everyone is equally responsible for everything. Could you make Armenians equally responsible as Stalin for their genocide?

That would be a fun exercise! How 'bout we take it to even more silly extremes? I've always wanted to blame Emporer Hirohito for the genocide of the American Indian! And why shouldn't Jimmy Carter shoulder his equal share of the blame for Rwanda? Hitler is far too widely used as a scapegoat...I think Mao Tse Tung should be held accountable for his role in the Jewish Holocaust.

-z
 
That kind of woo-woo political logic drives me nuts, and it's rampant in Middle East discussions.
This reminds me of an OP-ED which talks about such woo-woo political thought:


08:10 03/01/2006

"Blame the Mossad" - By Gideon Bachar - deputy director of the Foreign Ministry's Jordanian, Syrian and Lebanese division.

It is the belief that anything bad that happens in the region is the result of an Israeli and Western conspiracy against Arab interests. The chief culprit is always Western and Israeli intelligence agencies, like the Mossad, the CIA or the British MI6.

One recent example of this is in the former chairman of the Jordanian Writers Union, Fakhri Qi'war, who claimed the Mossad was behind the fatal bombings in Amman in November. Anyone who happened to be in Sinai after the bombings there would have heard locals repeating the claim that Israel was responsible for the atrocities, since "Al-Qaida does not have a terror infrastructure in Sinai."

Other examples are accusations that Israel was behind the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri because of his links to Syria, and the claim that the Mossad and the CIA were behind the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington, which, they claim, served American and Israeli interests.

After the death of Yasser Arafat, I was asked by one Arab diplomat, "What is the truth?" In other words, did Israel really murder him? And the phenomenon is not limited to the Middle East; it occurs among people of Middle Eastern descent now living in the West. That explains why Muslims living in the United Kingdom blamed Israel for carrying out the London bombings this summer.

These theories appear to fulfill some psychological need - an explanation of the weakness of the Arab world against Israel and the West. Indeed, these theories are most often promulgated by the weaker side, which is looking for explanations for its weakness.

Every conspiracy theory contains two elements: It is connected to a real event, and it aims to explain or interpret reality.

An awareness of the extent of the phenomenon is an important part of understanding the region and our ability to exist here in peace and prosperity.


{edited to add}

Case in point:

16:58 Jan 03, '06 / 3 Tevet 5766

Moslem incitement on the Temple Mount has reached new depths, so to speak, as the chief cleric of the Al-Aksa mosque accuses Israel of building a synagogue under the mosque.

The cleric, Sheikh Mohammed Hussein, said at a news conference on Tuesday that Israel was building the synagogue in order to cause the mosque to collapse.

Israel has formally denied the charges, stating categorically that nothing at all was being developed under the mosque, let alone a synagogue.

A key speaker at the conference was Sheikh Ekrema Sabri, who holds the position of “General Mufti for Jerusalem and Palestine” for the Palestinian Authority.

Sabri told Wafa, the news agency for the Palestine Liberation Organization (the PA’s umbrella organization), that “the Israeli authorities have been exploiting the big gates of the western side of Al-Aqsa since 1996 through conducting a series of excavation works which ended with clandestinely erecting a synagogue.”

Woo woo at it's finest. ;)
 
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