The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

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No, no, no, surely the correct tune is 'Nearer my God to Thee' by violin.

The M/S Estonia's engine room had one 'emergency exit' (it was otherwise a watertight space) and that was via a metal wall ladder that led to the car deck. Fromt he car deck you then need to travers circa seventeen metres to the next set of stairs and so on and so forth. It can be done from floor 0 (the engine room) to deck 8 in two minutes, as Sillaste and Treu claim, in their statements. However, Sillaste and Treu are trying to claim they did this when the ship was at 70 ° and then at 90°, which as you will surmise is absolutely impossible. Why? Because the doors are now only 80cm wide, being on the side horizontally, instead of upright. It would be impossible to climb any stairs at that angle. In addition, by the time they got to Deck 8, which they claim was about 1:30 the angle was 90°. In other words, the deck was now a sheer wall, 12m high. They claim they managed to get on the port side (literally on the side of the listed ship) just in time before it sank. This is complete and utter nonsense. They changed their story when it was realised that - ahem - no way can you do what you did whilst the boat was upright in two minutes, when the boat is on its side. And on the way, run around doing all kinds of heroic errands. Treu changed his 'stairs' version to claim he climbed up through the chimney instead, to investigate the emergency generator. No way did this happen in the timings they claimed. The only chance both crew and passenger had a realistic chance of escape was after the boat listed up to 30° to 40° starboard side and then momentarily righted itself to 15 ° the opposite way, giving the ship personnel ten minutes to just get the hell out of there. It is clear Sillaste, Linde and Treu, all got the hell out of there the same time as everybody else - circa between 1:02 and 1:12 - and why, they even shared a life raft together.

So their timings are out. Do you suppose they were looking at their watches while this was going on? Even allowing for their embroidering their accounts, what difference does it make?
Are you suggesting that they were somehow involved in the sinking?

An engine room, is not a watertight space by any means. It may have solid bulkheads for and aft but by it's very nature it can't be watertight while it is in use. Air has to be admitted for the main engines and generators etc. Also huge volumes of cooling air are forced in by big fans to make the space habitable by the crew. That isn't even taking in to account the many pipes that go through the hull for admitting and exiting water for cooling and the fire mains.
 
Fully-loaded, MS Estonia rode with the painted waterline maybe a meter or so above the actual waterline. However, in rough seas the ship will roll. Therefore it's conceivable that the damaged area could have been well below the waterline at the moment of some hypothetical collision.

There are a number of problems with the theory that a submarine collided with the ship. First is the obvious fact that the sub would have needed to be running surfaced in order for it to happen. I can't think of any reason why a submarine would be doing so, especially in heavy weather. But it's the only way the damage could have arisen at the designated place.

Second, if we interpret the hole as a collision injury, the penetrant was evidently somewhat sharply pointed. We know what the collision between a small ship and a military submarine looks like due to the unfortunate loss of the Ehime Maru when she was struck by the submarine USS Greenveille. Military submarines tend to have spherical or spheroid bows, although some types in the Soviet navy at the time still had ship-like prows, although a few had sonar domes that would have crushed upon impact without inflicting an incised injury.

Third, the hole doesn't seem to display any coating transfer. Most submarines are coated with various forms of anechoic materials that are not especially strongly bonded to the steel hull underneath. These coatings transfer to the receiving vessel upon impact. Even ordinary ship hulls transfer paint coatings to the receiving vessel and are generally visible in photographs of the wreckage. In contrast, impacts with rock do not transfer coatings, but may often embed chunks of broken rock in crevices in the tear.

It looks like a tear in the welds between intersecting hull plates. It's the kind of thing you would expect on a ship that has been subject for decades to stress it was not designed for.
 
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It tends to support the conclusions of others that the crew's versions were simply shoehorned to fit the the JAIC's predetermined narrative.

What was their predetermined narrative? What facts establish that there was a predetermined narrative, and what that narrative was?
 
We were actually discussing your claim that 'there must be proof that there was ex-USSR military equipment on board as of the time of the accident or it cannot have been any kind of sabotage or accident such as a collision with another vessel'.

I never made that claim.
 
From Anders Bjorkman's homepage:

Warning!
Media and other readers of my web pages about atomic bombs 1945, Moon trips 1969, Estonia incident 1994 and 911 tower collapses 2001 are warned. As you probably suffer from cognitive dissonance, you cannot handle them without getting mentally disturbed with serious consequences.

My proven facts are simple and correct news and no crazy conspiracy theories but controlled hallucinations! Atomic bombs do not work. No a-bombs killed >200 000 civilians at Hiroshima/Nagasaki 1945. It was just a bluff to quickly end world war two.
Oh dear.
 
Don't be too sure. The Estonians vehemently disagreed with the Swedes in 1997 when the report came out, and this time, they are in charge of reviewing the case. Public prosecutor, Margus Kurm in 2006 made it clear he believes a submarine, probably Swedish, collided with the vessel. As prosecutor who will be privy to all sorts of background information and understands the legal requirement of evidence to back up claims.

Sweden has 4 submarines. Their entire navy is smaller than a single US Navy Aircraft Carrier Task Force.

Someone would have noticed one of their subs had a boo boo.
 
Sweden has 4 submarines. Their entire navy is smaller than a single US Navy Aircraft Carrier Task Force.

Someone would have noticed one of their subs had a boo boo.

Not if they secretly loaded it onto a ferry and sent it to Russia for repairs.
 
The blue bit is the hull, as you can see clearly, here. It also elides the superstructure white bit, just below where it says 'ESTLINE'.

RMS Titanic has a pair of those caused by the impact of the bow section on the ocean floor. Looks more like a stress fracture than ship-to-ship contact. And it can't be too far away from one of the ship's expansion joints.

Had the boat sank on a sunny day you might have a claim, but look at the footage from the rescue operations. That is a wicked storm in an narrow sea. IMO that ship had no business sailing in that weather.
 
RMS Titanic has a pair of those caused by the impact of the bow section on the ocean floor. Looks more like a stress fracture than ship-to-ship contact. And it can't be too far away from one of the ship's expansion joints.

Had the boat sank on a sunny day you might have a claim, but look at the footage from the rescue operations. That is a wicked storm in an narrow sea. IMO that ship had no business sailing in that weather.

Can't agree with that. It's rough but not too bad.
 
For those interested, Safety at Sea ltd (now part of Brookes Bell) did a rough animation of the most likely sequence of events during the sinking. Some might find it interesting.
 
I can't get your link to work, but I found a report from the Baltic Times, which uses the same wording:

"A deformation of 22 meters in length and four meters in height was registered in the middle part of the vessel on the starboard side...[t]he area of the vessel that has sustained major damages is located next to hard rocks and the deformation matches the geometry thereof, he noted."

It seems to me that the implication here is that the deformation is likely due to the ship landing on these rocks.

Anything as material as that should have been mentioned in the report, if only to state it had been noted and ruled out as a cause of the accident.
 
Indeed, there's about 25% difference in the kinetic energies of the given sample vessels and speeds.

1,000,000 kg (fishing vessel) at 2.572 m s-1 is 3,308 kJ.
5,000,000 kg (submarine) at 0.977 m s-1 is 2,485 kJ

<snipped>
But none of that proves that the impact scenario that was simulated is the one that actually caused the damage. The best you can ever say is that the simulated scenario produces results consistent with the observations. It may be one of several possible scenarios, including ones the experimenter didn't think of or control for. Whether that best scenario matches what happened in real life depends entirely on the extent to which the experimenter can validate the variables in his model according to other evidence. The notion that Prof. Amdahl's findings must be spot-on because they are the product of "physics equations" is irresponsible reporting.

I don't think anyone has claimed, least of all Prof Amdahl, that his opinion in the Evertsson documentary is anything other than a cursory expert one based on his knowledge and experience. I expect he would want to be commissioned at a decent fee if he was asked to do a thorough analysis, together with modelling. In the same way a car mechanic can often know immediately what the problem is likely to be simply because of their field of expertise. You should note that he is 'establishment' and was fully in support of the JAIC's conclusions...until he saw Evertsson's life size model and film, and did his own various ad hoc analyses. Would he risk his professional reputation to equate the damage to a (possible) low speed submarine or a fishing vessel at 5 knots, were it not a reasonable conclusion any other physicist would make? In any case, such a deformation ought to have been mentioned in the JAIC report as damage noted but it is not mentioned at all.
 
No, it cannot. Deformation has a precise meaning in materials science.



You're obviously not a metallurgist. Ductility is an expression of plasticity, not elasticity. A material displays elastic deformation if it shows strain in response to stress, but then returns to its prior form when the stress is removed. A material undergoes plastic deformation -- including ductility -- when the material retains the strained shape after the stress force is removed. A material yields when it is fractured.

For an "objective" person, you certainly seem to be trying to interpolate your uninformed beliefs on various subjects into this discussion and have them believed without question.



Your uninformed guess is not evidence.



The simple answer is that you have no evidence for your claim.



And epoxy paint is not also brittle at low temperatures? For someone who admits he has no experience in forensic engineering investigation, you seem to be pontificating a lot in order to save face. The photographic evidence shows no fracture. The damage to which you refer is characterized as a deformation, not a fracture. At some point in this discussion will you ever concede that your uninformed claims are not backed up by evidence? Ever?


I have never claimed to be an expert in marine matters. An ex-husband was a metallurgy student at the time so I got to see a lot of that stuff <g>. Whole lever arch files about deformation. (No, I did not go there. <fx broad American accent: "Don't go there".>)

What do you mean 'save face'? All I was doing was reporting the news, not making it.
 
I don't think anyone has claimed, least of all Prof Amdahl, that his opinion in the Evertsson documentary is...

All of a sudden you seem to know a whole lot about Jørgen Amdahl's methods and motives.

Would he risk his professional reputation to equate the damage to a (possible) low speed submarine or a fishing vessel at 5 knots, were it not a reasonable conclusion any other physicist would make?

I have no idea what he's willing to risk or why, or even if he considers it especially risky. I do know that the claims made on the basis of a computer simulation are woefully underspecified, and don't really support the conclusions being drawn upon them, either by him or by others. And I was kind enough to explain in rather patient detail why I think that, based on my thirty years' experience in this field. If all you can do is point back to Prof. Amdahl and insist that he must be right, then I'm afraid you're not competent to have this discussion.

In any case, such a deformation ought to have been mentioned in the JAIC report as damage noted but it is not mentioned at all.

But you're not actually an expert in these matters, are you? Why is your judgment important here?
 
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I have never claimed to be an expert in marine matters.

You never claim to be an expert in anything, but you argue from a position that presumes you know what you're talking about even on highly specialized subjects. You're trying to educate people on subjects you obviously know nothing about. You clearly consider yourself some kind of expert, simply by the arguments you're trying to make; they rely heavily on nothing more substantial than your say-so. Only when you're directly challenged do you belatedly disclaim any relevant expertise.

What do you mean 'save face'? All I was doing was reporting the news, not making it.

You're trying all kinds of linguistic gymnastics to say that a deformation "really" means a crack or fracture. Instead you should have said, "My mistake." But you pressed forward and doubled down on your mistake.

The other day, you claimed that it would be "nonsense" to question your assessment of the psychology behind memory and eyewitness testimony. When you were confronted with both the scientific and legal invalidity of your claim, you lashed out against people you've never heard of and accused them of being nothing more than paid shills. Why? So that you could remain comfortable in your desired narrative of the unassailability of the survivor testimony.

You simply can't fathom the idea of being wrong. This is why your thread graduated to the Conspiracy Theory section. You're not objective. You're not just an inquisitive skeptic. You're trying to push a narrative that ultimately lacks factual support.
 
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Anders Björkman is not a credible authority, for the reasons already given.

I wouldn't know about his opinions elsewhere but he is an expert in his field:

Anders Björkman

M.Sc. Naval Architect and Marine Engineer, runs the NGO Heiwa Co European agency for Safety at Sea since 2000 and still 2021,

has more than 50 years experience of oil tanker, passenger ship and ferry design, construction, repairs and operations worldwide,

has 1991/7 been a delegate to the IMO for two national administrations and one NGO,

has been a speaker at various Safety at Sea and 911 Truth conferences,

holds several patents of ship safety,
https://heiwaco.tripod.com/cv.htm


A lot of people are interested in 9/11 and whatever, not sure how that equates to being a lunatic, as someone calls it. Even I was intrigued by the strange collapse of the second tower ATT. Some people are inquisitive, others are happy to be passively told what to think by Fox News or the Daily Pacifier. Which one is better? <shrugs> Which one is the sceptic? Bjorkman can be a Catholic, a Hindi, an atheist, a Jain, a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew for all I care.

Fortunately, the inquiry into the Estonia hasn't been commissioned by Bjorkman so we need not worry about his views on whatever, except the ones in which he is a qualified expert.
 
But it's a backward observation. A trained professional can certainly note that the general disposition of the damage is consistent with an impact over a relatively small area. Application of stress will cause different sections of the hull plating to respond in different ways. An elastic response won't be evident in the final form, except possibly in the form of small surface microfractures visible only by microscope. These would not seriously impair the structure performance of the hull plating; such microfractures are commonly incurred in ordinary operation.

A plastic response will be evident in the form of deformations that nevertheless to do not require the material to yield. Most minor ship collisions result only in plastic deformation. And in fact, such behavior is desired because it allows collided ships to retain watertight integrity.

A yield response occurs when materials or welds part. This can occur in hull plating as a shear failure or as a brittle fracture. Temperature affects the ductile-to-brittle transformation point in all metals except for aluminum. Strain rates also dictate yield behavior. That is evident in the final disposition in obviously parted materials.

To say a "puncture" causes "deformation" isn't really a thing. Application of stress results in a combination of the three responses I summarized. One response mode does not cause another. Deformation and parted yields are two possible outcomes of the same initiating cause.

What remains suspicious for me is the lack of paint loss at the impact site and the lack of any paint or coating transfer to the damage site. Impacts almost always result in the loss of paint, especially where scraping or grinding occurs, such as in the proposed submarine impact scenario. What would cause metal to fracture without loss of paint?

The hole seems to occur at or near the joint between two hull plates. This kind of damage is consistent with a collision, of course. But it's also consistent with differential in-plane loading, or "springing" hull plates, as it's sometimes noted commonly. In-plane loading occurs when there is compression trying to push two edges of a material together. It can also occur when there is a moment vector perpendicular to the material plane. At joint edges, the plates can subduct. But buckling is also an extremely common material response of thin sheets to in-plane loading.

This article features a ship whose hull has failed in a way that caused the hull plating to buckle outward in response to in-plane angular loading. Note that the welds have failed at the greatest extent of buckling. https://www.marineinsight.com/naval-architecture/ships-hull-fail-at-midship-region/

Absent any reinforcement, there is no guarantee whether a ship's hull plate will buckle inwards or outwards (or both) in response to such in-plane loading. And if the buckle axis is perpendicular to a seam, and the seam fails, there is no guarantee that the seamed plates will buckle in the same direction. The damage I see at the breach in Estonia's hull is not entirely inconsistent in my opinion with buckling damage. And it explains the lack of coating damage.

Then this buckling should have been explained in the JAIC report, as otherwise it looks as though they have failed to include something that is material, i.e., a possible cause of the accident, even if only to say, 'We have noted it'.
 
I wouldn't know about his opinions elsewhere but he is an expert in his field.

Nope. Not for a very long time, and after an abrupt departure from his former employer. The "agency" he directs consists entirely of him. I debated Björkman personally for months, although not on this forum. I am far more able than you to assess his professional competence.

Fortunately, the inquiry into the Estonia hasn't been commissioned by Bjorkman so we need not worry about his views on whatever, except the ones in which he is a qualified expert.

While Björkman considers himself an expert, the field does not. And there's a reason he's not involved in the second inquiry, even though he's spent several years offering his opinions on the Estonia accident. As long as you keep citing him as an authority, you will have to deal with his unique combination of arrogance and incompetence.
 
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Then this buckling should have been explained in the JAIC report, as otherwise it looks as though they have failed to include something that is material, i.e., a possible cause of the accident, even if only to say, 'We have noted it'.

This seems to be the only response you are interested in giving, even though we've already established -- and you have further admitted -- that forensic engineering is not something you're competent in. I gave you a detailed explanation of failure modes, which you evidently don't understand. You ignored all of it simply to beat the same tired drum you've been beating for a score of pages.
 
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