New antidepressant study refutes link to suicidality

[BillHoyt]

A new study published in the January American Journal of Psychiatry refutes the alleged link between antidepressants and suicidality. It finds suicide risk is decreased after patients begin taking antidepressants.

New Study

 

[Melendwyr]

Since the alleged link is that a small minority of patients who otherwise have a fairly low rate of suicidality attempt to kill themselves with little to no warning signs after initiating medication, this study does not refute it.

 

[BillHoyt]

Since the alleged link is that a small minority of patients who otherwise have a fairly low rate of suicidality attempt to kill themselves with little to no warning signs after initiating medication, this study does not refute it.

Perhaps you missed this part of the article, quoting one of the researchers ?

"The period right after people start taking antidepressant medication is not a period of increased risk. In fact, risk after starting medication is lower than before."

 

[luchog]

Perhaps you missed this part of the article, quoting one of the researchers ?

Nope, I agree, there is nothing in that study that refutes the previous one; particularly since it refers explicitly to those patients who have a high risk of suicide prior to begining treatment, rather than the anomalous suicidality that Mel described. The article doesn't really appear differentiate populations in that respect. The fact that the rate remains constant after beginning AD therapy also doesn't refute the risk, but instead would seem to support it.

While the overall risk drops significantly, predominantly among those with a history of suicidal ideation/attempts, there is still the small increase among those with no similar history. The former drop is considerably larger than the latter increase, so there is a significant overall drop.

I'd like to see info on separate populations and risk levels before making any such judgements.

 

[Miggins]

From a personal point of view, I`ve been on 3 different anti- depressants now over a number of years, and I can tell you the effects differ wildly. The one that was pinpointed in this country for causing suicide, a tri-cyclic, can`t remember the name of it now, did have an horrific effect upon me including hallucinations, murderous feelings and an overwhelming urge towards self harm, which eventually led to me burning myself severely up and down my left arm with a cigarette..............something I never would have done previously.
So I do think there is something to this. Obviously- this is all anecdotal, not scientific, but there you are.
Finally I was prescribed fluoxetine (Prozac- the old housewives favourite) which has worked wonders on me, and made me almost human. I suppose in America I would be sueing someone by now, but then again I`d rather they test these drugs on hapless humans like me than monkeys.
Of course, people with a tendancy toward black thoughts and self doubt are much easily triggered to self destruction than the rest of the population, it`s a fine line.
It seems to me sometimes that a dread of death can make you want to kill yourself, paradxically because then you are in control of you own mortality....
Please excuse the rambling nature of this post- now, where`s me pills?

 

[Lynx2174]

From a personal point of view, I`ve been on 3 different anti- depressants now over a number of years, and I can tell you the effects differ wildly. The one that was pinpointed in this country for causing suicide, a tri-cyclic, can`t remember the name of it now,

might have been Paxil? that one is apparently pretty notorious, though I might be just thinking of the withdrawl effects.

 

[Miggins]

Paxil, yes, that rings a bell. Could well have been.

 

[phildonnia]

Some people cling to the persistent belief that psychoactive drugs are the evil spawn of the psychiatric establishment bent on turning your children into happy little bits of play-doh for liberal socialist indoctrination. Whether this is true or not, we can expect these drugs to be attacked with the same blind ferocity as vaccinations and DDT.

There seems to be a continued drive for such tried-and-failed solutions such as "just snap out of it", advocated by people who have not experienced the pleasure of grappling with unrelenting feelings of total worthlessness. The expectation that someone should be able to cure their depression by thinking about it has a consequence: when they fail to get better, this is now a personal failure. Back to the days when psychiatric problems were due to moral weakness.

Depression kills; that is undeniable. The current drugs have lots of problems, but I believe they are saving lives. I also believe that the current popular climate against psychiatry has the potential to take the lives of helpless sufferers merely for the purpose of reinforcing people's comfortable and outdated predjudices.

Where the hell did that rant come from?! Sorry, I've had some personal experience with this issue.

 

[Miggins]

I quite aggree.

 

[Melendwyr]

Perhaps you missed this part of the article, quoting one of the researchers ?

No. Perhaps you missed my post, where I explained that this study demonstrates only that there is not a global increase in risk, which is not what is being asserted - therefore, this study does not refute those assertions.

 

[Melendwyr]

Depression kills; that is undeniable.

Really? I'll deny it.

I also believe that the current popular climate against psychiatry

Bwuh?!

Psychiatry is about as under attack as Christianity is - less so, even, as there are massive concerted efforts to get people to accept the view that mental disorders are physiological medical conditions for which drugs are a specific treatment, and few are the organizations that would prosetlyze for Christianity so insistently.

 

[Freakshow]

Really? I'll deny it.

Explain...

 

[Freakshow]

No. Perhaps you missed my post, where I explained that this study demonstrates only that there is not a global increase in risk, which is not what is being asserted - therefore, this study does not refute those assertions.

Emphasis mine...

That right there is all anyone should really care about, other than physicians warning their patients that if they are not feeling better or are feeling worse, they need to call them immediately.

If there is no global increase in risk, the only members of the general public I can think of that would be seriously interested in specific narrow cases would be lawyers.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Since the alleged link is that a small minority of patients who otherwise have a fairly low rate of suicidality attempt to kill themselves with little to no warning signs after initiating medication, this study does not refute it.

What does that mean?

 

[luchog]

From a personal point of view, I`ve been on 3 different anti- depressants now over a number of years, and I can tell you the effects differ wildly.

I've been on 4 different anti-depressants. Three had no significant positive effect, and one of those, Effexor, caused a severe negative reaction. So severe my doctor tagged my file as "allergic" to the medication. I didn't sleep for almost three days and had severe constant tremors and trouble with my vision. And that was on half the normal starting dose (I also had a similarly severe reaction to lithium on a sub-clinical dose). Trazadone just turned me into a zombie, unable to function at all. The third, whse name i forget, just gave me raging headaches, with no other effect that I noticed.

The only result of these drugs was a serious fouling up of my already abnormal body and brain chemistry.

The fourth, the only one that has had a significant positive effect, is Cannabis, used in moderate amounts. The effect is milder than that expected from the SSRIs, but it also doesn't carry the horrible side effects, either.

 

[Melendwyr]

What does that mean?

The claim is that a small number of patients who take certain SSRIs have a huge increase in suicidal ideation and behavior despite a lack of prior risk. This study shows that the SSRIs do not, on average, increase the risk of suicide in patients who take it. Therefore, the study does not refute the claim.

 

[BillHoyt]

Since the alleged link is that a small minority of patients who otherwise have a fairly low rate of suicidality attempt to kill themselves with little to no warning signs after initiating medication, this study does not refute it.

Not according to the original FDA advisory, sir:

"On close examination of the initial reports, it was unclear whether certain behaviors reported in these studies represented actual suicide attempts, or other self-injurious behavior that was not suicide-related."

FDA Advisory

 

[Art Vandelay]

The claim is that a small number of patients who take certain SSRIs have a huge increase in suicidal ideation and behavior despite a lack of prior risk.

But that is a completely vacuous claim. You might as well claim that some people who take SSRIs have heart attacks. Either you have some other claim that you are not properly articulating, or you spinning an utterly obvious and trivial fact to seem somehow sinister.

This study shows that the SSRIs do not, on average, increase the risk of suicide in patients who take it. Therefore, the study does not refute the claim.

Well, strictly speaking, that does not follow. You need an "only" between "study" and "shows" to make that conclusion.

 

[Melendwyr]

But that is a completely vacuous claim.

Um, no, it's not.

You might as well claim that some people who take SSRIs have heart attacks.

THAT is a vacuous claim - it's almost inevitable that some people who take SSRIs will have heart attacks. Now, if a small portion of people without any significant risk of heart disease started having fatal attacks after taking SSRIs...

Either you have some other claim that you are not properly articulating, or you spinning an utterly obvious and trivial fact to seem somehow sinister.

Or, your reading comprehension and reasoning capacities are far below average.

 

[gnome]

I've been on 4 different anti-depressants. Three had no significant positive effect, and one of those, Effexor, caused a severe negative reaction. So severe my doctor tagged my file as "allergic" to the medication. I didn't sleep for almost three days and had severe constant tremors and trouble with my vision. And that was on half the normal starting dose (I also had a similarly severe reaction to lithium on a sub-clinical dose). Trazadone just turned me into a zombie, unable to function at all. The third, whse name i forget, just gave me raging headaches, with no other effect that I noticed.

The only result of these drugs was a serious fouling up of my already abnormal body and brain chemistry.

The fourth, the only one that has had a significant positive effect, is Cannabis, used in moderate amounts. The effect is milder than that expected from the SSRIs, but it also doesn't carry the horrible side effects, either.

Psychiatric drugs have some differential effects. It takes an unfortunate amount of trial and error to find the right mix for any one individual. Does that mean they should not be used?