New antidepressant study refutes link to suicidality

Um, no, it's not.
Of course it is. It conveys nothing that a person of reasonable intelligence couldn't figure out for themselves.

Since you still don't seem to grasp this, here's an example of a claim that would not be vacuous: "There is a group of people for which SSRIs have been proven to raise the rate of suicide, and there are ways to be certain whether someone is in that group, before they start taking SSRIs."

Is that what you're claiming? Or are you simply claiming that being in "low risk category" and taking an SSRI is not enough to guarantee that someone will not commit suicide? Because if it's the latter, then it is an incredibly vacuous statement.

THAT is a vacuous claim - it's almost inevitable that some people who take SSRIs will have heart attacks.
Just as it is inevitable that some people who take SSRIs will commit suicide.

Now, if a small portion of people without any significant risk of heart disease started having fatal attacks after taking SSRIs...
Are you seriously claiming that is not the case?

Or, your reading comprehension and reasoning capacities are far below average.
Ah, so now you're just resorting to personal attacks?
 
Some people cling to the persistent belief that psychoactive drugs are the evil spawn of the psychiatric establishment bent on turning your children into happy little bits of play-doh for liberal socialist indoctrination. Whether this is true or not, we can expect these drugs to be attacked with the same blind ferocity as vaccinations and DDT.

{snip}
Where the hell did that rant come from?! Sorry, I've had some personal experience with this issue.

Just read up on scientology, kevin trudeau, or watch tom cruise on a news program. They all claim drugs, especially those used by psychiatrists, are useless and make it all worse and everyone selling them or prescribing them are in cahoots.

http://firstdistributorsnz.com/scientomogy/tommatt.htm
http://www.scientomogy.info/

Might as well add my own anecdote. Nothing did much for my depression until I started taking wellbutrin. I tried 3 others. One turned me into a tired lump of only wanting to sleep, another made me sweat like a beast no matter what I was doing (zoloft). Then wellbutrin was my miracle drug. Everyone is different, and all drugs need to go along with some kind of group or individual therapy along with monitoring by a psychiatrist. I have to say I'm darn grateful one of them worked for me.
 
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Man. Tried 3 AD's? 4 AD's? And 3 AD's? Geez, you guys are LIGHTWEIGHTS! :)
The Dope Show.jpeg

I don't take all of that. But have been on as many as 5 things at a time. (Different types of meds at the same time; SSRI's or SNRI's, TCA's, atyptical antipsychotics, tried DRI (dopamine reuptake inhibitor), also tried some siezure medicine to control mania (because I was first misdiagnosed; ouch) or help sleep, etc.) What you see in the picture is most of what I have tried, and almost all of that was thrown out after the picture was taken. I'm only on two things now. One for depression, and one to help me sleep. I'm doing MUCH better. :)

But Gnome asked an interesting question: "Does that mean they should not be used?"

Of course not. What it means is that a bunch of lawyers are trying to get rich. Here are some examples:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=GGGL%2CGGGL%3A2005-09%2CGGGL%3Aen&q=zoloft+lawyer&btnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=GGGL%2CGGGL%3A2005-09%2CGGGL%3Aen&q=prozac+lawyer&btnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=GGGL%2CGGGL%3A2005-09%2CGGGL%3Aen&q=paxil+lawyer&btnG=Search

F***ing leaches... :mad:
 
Group Health researchers found that the number of suicide attempts fell by 60 percent in adults during the month after antidepressant treatment began, and declined further in the following five months. Among the 65,103 patients taking antidepressants, there were 31 completed suicides in the six months following the antidepressant prescription. That rate was not higher in the first month after the prescription was given than in subsequent months. The study also found that newer antidepressants were associated with a faster decline in rates of suicidal behavior than older drugs.
Well considering the very small size of the study, the complete and total lack of any demographic control, lack of suicide risk assesment, and lack of intervention risk and match9ing I would say that this study means squat for the suicide risk factors of an individual taking antidepressants.
As it says at the top of the article IN GENERAL the use of antidepressants does not increase the risk of suicide. WHOOPEE, that really makes my job a whole lot easier.

1. The warning was a congressional mandate and had nothing to do with medicine and intervention in the first place.
2. Taking the antidepressants creates a HUGE RISK for individuals with persisyant suicidal ideation, treatment is the most dangerous when it is initiated. If you have an individual who is depressed with vegatative symptoms they are at risk of harming themselves but it is lower because of the lack of energy and motivation. So when you begin treatment, the vegatative symptoms reduce and when they have a bad day, BAM they are now atr high risk of suicide. This is a real phenomena.
3. The other link between suicide and antidepressants is that they perscribe anti-depressants to people who are suicidal , and because of the lower lethality of the SSRI as oppossed to tricyclics , suicidal people are preferentialy treated with SSRI medication. hence the coorelation.

I agree that this study will show that overall the use of any AD does not increase the chance of ending ones life. That was not the problem in the first place,
parents who demand medication for thier children and then won't accept the risks of any treatment are the problem.

I know that this was not the point of your post Bill, and my post is about something else entirlyly but as a person who is very involved in suicide prevention, the study is well meaningless.

1. What was the original risk assesment for the members of the study. Most people seeking treatment are at low risk to begin with.

2. IT IS VERY DANGEROUS to just state that treatment does not increase the risk of suicide in the general population, the problem is that in the high risk population treatment increases the risk of suicide during the begining of treatment.

I know that this has nothing to do with your OP and I hope that you will forgive my soap box histrionics.
 
From a personal point of view, I`ve been on 3 different anti- depressants now over a number of years, and I can tell you the effects differ wildly. The one that was pinpointed in this country for causing suicide, a tri-cyclic, can`t remember the name of it now, did have an horrific effect upon me including hallucinations, murderous feelings and an overwhelming urge towards self harm, which eventually led to me burning myself severely up and down my left arm with a cigarette..............something I never would have done previously.
Unfortunately ADs do have side effects, sounds like the doapmine cascade drove you into anxiety, I have never heard of hallucinations before, that must have really sucked.
So I do think there is something to this. Obviously- this is all anecdotal, not scientific, but there you are.
Finally I was prescribed fluoxetine (Prozac- the old housewives favourite) which has worked wonders on me, and made me almost human. I suppose in America I would be sueing someone by now, but then again I`d rather they test these drugs on hapless humans like me than monkeys.
Given the prevalent use of SSRI medications, it is a small percentage of the population out to sue.
Of course, people with a tendancy toward black thoughts and self doubt are much easily triggered to self destruction than the rest of the population, it`s a fine line.
It seems to me sometimes that a dread of death can make you want to kill yourself, paradxically because then you are in control of you own mortality....
Please excuse the rambling nature of this post- now, where`s me pills?

I am gald that you have found relief.
 
Emphasis mine...

That right there is all anyone should really care about, other than physicians warning their patients that if they are not feeling better or are feeling worse, they need to call them immediately.

If there is no global increase in risk, the only members of the general public I can think of that would be seriously interested in specific narrow cases would be lawyers.

And Crisis Intervention Counselors!

;)
 
Really? I'll deny it.


Depression does cause people to kill themselves, I only comment because it is avery serious issue that is vastly under reported and discussed in our society. Most families would rather hide from mental illness and tell thier famalies to avoid treatment, rather than seek treatment. It is one of the joys of intervention to talk to someone who is at high risk and they tell you "I was going to go to the hospital, but my family said I shouldn't"

Probably not the point of your comment.
 
Another anecdote. I've twice been given SSRIs, once was Prozac and the second was something beginning with C. Both times I experienced a marked increase in anxiety, clearly beginning about 30 to 90 minutes after taking the pill. I really felt dreadful, and both times this resulted in me stopping the treatment before any beneficial effects might have been expected to show up.

I got better anyway. The first time because I shouldn't have been given the prescription in the first place, and when some blood results finally came back with the right diagnosis and the right treatment was started all was well. The second time because a hypnotherapist gave me some very intensive lessons in relaxation techniques.

Which is not to say that the preparations shouldn't be used, many people clearly derive benefit, but I suspect a little more awareness that they can be trouble might not go amiss - the first doctor prescribed the Prozac to "lighten my mood" while waiting for the blood test results. Not a success, is all I can say!

Rolfe.
 
Unfortunately ADs do have side effects, sounds like the doapmine cascade drove you into anxiety, I have never heard of hallucinations before, that must have really sucked.
Wellbutrin (the one and only DRI, Dopamine Reuptake Inhibitor, on the market) was an extremely effective AD for me. Unfortunately, after being on it for a couple months, I started to hear voices. I also developed an extreme fear and paranoia in the evenings. I couldn't sleep, because I was certain that someone was going to come into the house in the middle of the night. I would search the entire house before going to bed. I'd by lying in bed, hear a creak, and get up and search the entire house again.

I told my Dr, I quit taking it and switched to something else, and was back to normal within a week or two.

What a shame. It did work very well as an AD. And the first couple of months, before the side-effects, I was going great.
 
Another anecdote. I've twice been given SSRIs, once was Prozac and the second was something beginning with C.
Cymbalta? It is an SNRI, meaning it is a reuptake inhibitor for both Serotonin and Neurepinephrine. Its what I take, and I have fortunately been doing very well on it. It also is known for having less sexual side effects than other SSRI's/SNRI's.
 
Cymbalta? It is an SNRI, meaning it is a reuptake inhibitor for both Serotonin and Neurepinephrine. Its what I take, and I have fortunately been doing very well on it. It also is known for having less sexual side effects than other SSRI's/SNRI's.
No. The name was so close to ciprofloxacin (or a trade name of that) that I just can't recall it.

Rolfe.
 
I told my Dr, I quit taking it and switched to something else, and was back to normal within a week or two.

What a shame. It did work very well as an AD. And the first couple of months, before the side-effects, I was going great.

:cool: I guess I'm not jealous I didn't get those whacky side effects. Zyban is wellbutrin, but is sold to folks that want to quit smoking or lose some weights. It helps decrease cravings.
 
Cymbalta? It is an SNRI, meaning it is a reuptake inhibitor for both Serotonin and Neurepinephrine. Its what I take, and I have fortunately been doing very well on it. It also is known for having less sexual side effects than other SSRI's/SNRI's.


There is also Cylexa.
 
:cool: I guess I'm not jealous I didn't get those whacky side effects. Zyban is wellbutrin, but is sold to folks that want to quit smoking or lose some weights. It helps decrease cravings.
Personally, I hate losing weights. Its a real pain when I need them for my workout and can't find them.
 
Man. Tried 3 AD's? 4 AD's? And 3 AD's? Geez, you guys are LIGHTWEIGHTS! :)
That's only the ADs; I didn't mention the antipsychotics, anti-anxiety meds, mood-stabilizers, etc. I don't even remember all the medications that I've been on (there are a couple of years that are a sort of blur, and I have few strong memories from that period).
 
Hmmm... clearly the disorder was interfering with his memory functions. More medication is needed!
 
:cool: I guess I'm not jealous I didn't get those whacky side effects. Zyban is wellbutrin, but is sold to folks that want to quit smoking or lose some weights. It helps decrease cravings.
It's funny in a way. I was a heavy smoker (2 packs a day) and my psychiatrist proscribed Wellbutrin for severe depression. It didn't work on my depression but I lost the desire to smoke and quit. After I told my doctor that, he said that Wellbutrin was just starting to be researched as an aid to quit smoking. So I guess in this case, my anecdotal evidence has some worth!

Unfortunately after being smoke-free for 4 years I recently started up again. Maybe I should go on Wellbutrin again?
 
Right, Antidepressants...

Well, there has been said a lot about those in medical science. The last good article was published in 2004, in Lancet by Whittington and his co-workers. Can't link, due to post count :(

On personal account, I did a project last year with a professor, who lead the project of one of the first SSRI's (fluvoxamin). It was very interesting hearing his side of the story. First of all, he said that SSRI's don't treat depression (or rather MDD), they merely suppress the feeling of depression. If people are able to get over an MDD episode, they had an 80% chance of relapse in 4 years (iirc). The only right treatment of MDD would be psychotherapy, possibly aided by SSRI's.

About the increase in suicidal behavior he said he said he assumed this to be true for adolescents. He said he was quite sure the mechanics were different in adolescents (opposed to adults), making these claims "not incredible". He said that this should be taken into account, untill proper disprove would show otherwise. He said SSRI's could be taken by adolescents, though preferrably under the supervision of a psychologist/psychiatrist, which would be the better way of treatment anyway. Trivial prescribtion of SSRI's to adolescents he found both dangerous and irrisponsible.
 
Right, Antidepressants...

Well, there has been said a lot about those in medical science. The last good article was published in 2004, in Lancet by Whittington and his co-workers. Can't link, due to post count :(

On personal account, I did a project last year with a professor, who lead the project of one of the first SSRI's (fluvoxamin). It was very interesting hearing his side of the story. First of all, he said that SSRI's don't treat depression (or rather MDD), they merely suppress the feeling of depression.
And how did he gauge that?
Was he looking at dose response levels?
Was this a longitudinal study?
Was there demographic matching?
Was there differential diagnosis for bipolar and dysthimia?
Was he using a gross depression survey like the Beck Depression Inventory or a finer tool?
What were the sample sizes and the controls like?
If people are able to get over an MDD episode, they had an 80% chance of relapse in 4 years (iirc).
This is very high, were these people who didn't respond to the AD's?
What life skills did they have in place?
Were they still in stressful enviroments?
What was trhe compliance with treatment rate and who was perscribing?
The only right treatment of MDD would be psychotherapy, possibly aided by SSRI's.

Right? Are you sre you want to use that word?

It has been shown that the most effective treatment is the use of both CBT and AD's.
I hope you don't mean Freudian psychotherapy, it has a treatment sucsess below the threshold for AD's.
About the increase in suicidal behavior he said he said he assumed this to be true for adolescents. He said he was quite sure the mechanics were different in adolescents (opposed to adults), making these claims "not incredible". He said that this should be taken into account, untill proper disprove would show otherwise. He said SSRI's could be taken by adolescents, though preferrably under the supervision of a psychologist/psychiatrist, which would be the better way of treatment anyway. Trivial prescribtion of SSRI's to adolescents he found both dangerous and irrisponsible.

The trivial perscription of all medications is dangerous, evaluation of adolescents should always be done by a skilled practioner, and family therapy is always indicated.

Psychologists should not perscribe but only work on the life and cognitive skills.
 

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