The Jan. 6 Investigation

[autumn1971]

Imagine lying, and excusing the lie by saying, "Well, they still acted badly".

Do the facts matter, or do they not matter? And if they matter, why do you object to actually getting them right?

And lastly, the reason I spent time researching this isn't because I wanted to be able to say anything. I spent time researching this because I wanted to know. And apparently, despite multiple people making accusations of me being cocooned in right wing media, I'm the only one here who actually bothered to go to the primary source, unfiltered by media of any kind.

Jesus ******* Christ. I said they described their attempted murder.

If I’m being beaten by an armed mob and being clubbed in the head, the mob is trying to, possibly without prior specific intentions or mens rea, kill me.

Grow the **** up.

 

[junkshop]

Is incompetence a defence against accusations of intent?

I would argue that it is not. The intent and the attempt are crimes in and of themselves, regardless of success or failiure.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

No! This is not mere "loons in the basement". Read what I posted earlier, and more importantly, read the links, especially the full content on the indictments.

OK. I don't care to dissect the meaning of "loons in the basement" and I'm certainly willing to agree on the objective parts of what you said "trained people who planned to start shooting and killing people on the day if they got the word from Trump, which they were expecting would come. They stashed arms outside the Capitol for that purpose."

They are a small minority of those arrested. And the main point I'm going for is that it is this small minority where the major changes might come from. The other hundreds of people weren't well coordinated and weren't in widespread communication with one another.

 

[Cain]

And when those caught up in " monkey-see, monkey-do" happen to be with those monkeys when they actually find those they're looking for and threatening to 'hang' or 'put a bullet in'? People in mobs feed off each other as we saw in that insurrection. They became more violent as they urged each other on to the point of beating police officers and calling for machetes, and to use their own guns against them. The officers refraining from using their own guns in self-defense most likely kept the mob from becoming even more violent as one officer testified.

I agree.

What do you think a frenzied mob would have done had they gotten their hands on any of those unarmed legislators?

I don't know, but members of Congress were justifiably fearing for their lives. Though not everyone was (not yet) of the same mind, zip-ties suggests taking prisoners. And opportunistically grabbing zip-ties IS better than bringing them from home.

It's also easy to look back on everything in retrospect and say we knew what was going to happen. Apologists for the insurrectionists say Capitol police are blowing things out of proportion, but it's all different in the moment when you don't know how things are gonna turn.

I recall an academic explaining that riots are a social phenomenon. Few people are uninhibited enough to be the first participant to throw a brick through a window, but many will cheer when someone does. Then there's the guy who hears the cheers and decides to be the second person to throw a brick. And so on. Behavior is contagious, which seems to diminish individual culpability. Any one of us could get caught up in it, which is why it's so irresponsible for demagogues like Trump, Hawley, and Cruz to stoke those fires. It is crazy that more than five percent of people approve of Trump, or that Hawley & Cruz have not been removed from the Senate.

 

[Armitage72]

Jim Jordan doesn't seem nervous at all. I can't imagine why they didn't want him on the commission.

 

[jimbob]

I have to disagree about the competent part. A major reason it failed was sheer ineptitude.

Indeed but so was the Bay of Pigs,

It still was intended to be a serious violent attack on the handover of power by those taking part.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Indeed but so was the Bay of Pigs,

It still was intended to be a serious violent attack on the handover of power by those taking part.

I would agree with this. I think a lot of the people involved thought they were taking part of a coup attempt and violated the law to further that goal.

The fact that their plan was ludicrous and ended up being totally non-viable does little to mitigate the criminal and moral culpability for their actions.

 

[smartcooky]

Indeed but so was the Bay of Pigs,

It still was intended to be a serious violent attack on the handover of power by those taking part.

I would agree with this. I think a lot of the people involved thought they were taking part of a coup attempt and violated the law to further that goal.

The fact that their plan was ludicrous and ended up being totally non-viable does little to mitigate the criminal and moral culpability for their actions.

In 2019, Trump tried to blackmail the Ukrainian President by withholding arms and supplies in exchange for the latter starting a (sham) investigation to get (fake) dirt Joe Biden. The arms and supplies were later approved and the fake investigation was never opened. Trump and his minions claimed "no harm no foul". That is not how the law works; never was, never will be.

There are a number of people out there... including some here in this thread, who are attempting to apply the same Trumpist reasoning - that the 1/6 terrorist attack on the Capitol was somehow diminished in importance because it didn't achieve the aim of stopping the alleged steal. These people are showing the most basic... the most fundamental lack of understanding of how the law works, and in this particular case, how the charge of conspiracy works.

In a conspiracy charge, the prosecutors do not have to prove that the "end" criminal act of the conspiracy was successful. All they have to prove is intent to commit the crime. All of the Oath Keepers in the superseding charging document have been charged under 18 USC § 371 - Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States which "for conspiracy to commit a substantive offense requires proof that one of the conspirators committed an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy."

The carrying out of that act in furtherance of the conspiracy proves intent. The FBI have this in spades- overwhelming evidence that several of the co-conspirators carried out overt acts. Those acts do not have to be criminal acts in and of themselves.

 

[theprestige]

I would agree with this. I think a lot of the people involved thought they were taking part of a coup attempt and violated the law to further that goal.

The fact that their plan was ludicrous and ended up being totally non-viable does little to mitigate the criminal and moral culpability for their actions.

It would help declown your argument if you could produce any evidence of a coup plan, or any evidence that participants believed they were contributing to such a plan.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

What, do you think they were all flocking to the Capitol from all around the country at the same date, time, and place to enjoy each other's company?

They went there from all over the country, all at once, which requires organization, to interfere in the process of government that they believed was illegitimate. That they were the right people to respond (because they'd been called there) to the Steal, and that many in the government were traitors who deserved a traitor's death.

 

[Lurch]

It would help declown your argument if you could produce any evidence of a coup plan, or any evidence that participants believed they were contributing to such a plan.

There you have it, folks. To the participants it was called "Stop the steal." They didn't name it a "coup." And so it could not possibly have been a coup attempt.

 

[theprestige]

There you have it, folks. To the participants it was called "Stop the steal." They didn't name it a "coup." And so it could not possibly have been a coup attempt.

Tell me more. Tell me about the coup plot. Tell me about the conspiracy to assassinate government officials. Who were the ringleaders of this plot? Who were the operatives? Where are the informers who blew the conspiracy wide open?

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Asking the wrong people if you want names (for some reason). DOJ is actively going through evidence and making arrests, if you want the documentary dissecting everything, you'll probably have to wait ten years.

 

[smartcooky]

It would help declown your argument if you could produce any evidence of a coup plan, or any evidence that participants believed they were contributing to such a plan.

"Elizabeth from Knoxville" thought she was participating in a revolution. Poor thing got maced!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTLXtE8ihcY

 

[Pixel42]

It would help declown your argument if you could produce any evidence of a coup plan, or any evidence that participants believed they were contributing to such a plan.

I would have thought the stashing of weapons caches close to the Capitol was evidence of both.

 

[smartcooky]

I would have thought the stashing of weapons caches close to the Capitol was evidence of both.

And while there is no evidence yet, it would not surprise me in the least if the suspect in the planting of those pipe bombs near the Capitol (observed in surveillance video) turned out to be a member of one of the three far-right militia groups charged with conspiracy.

There was also a Virginia Ex Cop who was arrested for participation in the 1/6, who was found to have a partially assembled pipe bomb in his home. He claims it was a training aid for a course he is running. Yeah, right!

Now, in order to head off the usual suspects at the pass who will...

a. Blindly believe his claim, and
b. Claim that a partially assembled pipe bomb is not actually a pipe bomb

... this is what Feds found...

A pipe with end caps and a fuse fitted to one end
An ammunition can labelled “ALERRT kit, props and booby trap sims,”
50 cans of black or smokeless powder (that's about 50lb of explosive)

That is a ******* lot of explosive for a training course, and in any case, its even worse if he's been teaching others how to make bombs!

 

[Parsman]

Tell me more. Tell me about the coup plot. Tell me about the conspiracy to assassinate government officials. Who were the ringleaders of this plot? Who were the operatives? Where are the informers who blew the conspiracy wide open?

You seem to be being contrarian for the sake of it. A large group of people gathered at the behest of 45, and were whipped into a frenzy by rhetoric from45, Giuliani, Brooks etc. They were urged to go to The Capitol and "Stop the Steal". They proceeded to try to do that by the use of force, intimidation and violence. They were even prepared to attack and injure law enforcement to achieve their ends, that end being stopping a democratic transfer of power and keep the loser in power. Your quibble seems to be this wasn't a coup because... reasons? It might not have been the most organised of coups, it might not have had military backing. Heck given the loons heading the movement, 45 and his minions, I doubt they could plan the proverbial piss up in the brewery but it was an attempted violent overthrow of an election. So get out your thesaurus if you don't like the word coup, but your side has to own this for what it was, and the enquiry I am sure will clarify that enough even for you.

 

[smartcooky]

You seem to be being contrarian for the sake of it. A large group of people gathered at the behest of 45, and were whipped into a frenzy by rhetoric from45, Giuliani, Brooks etc. They were urged to go to The Capitol and "Stop the Steal". They proceeded to try to do that by the use of force, intimidation and violence. They were even prepared to attack and injure law enforcement to achieve their ends, that end being stopping a democratic transfer of power and keep the loser in power. Your quibble seems to be this wasn't a coup because... reasons? It might not have been the most organised of coups, it might not have had military backing. Heck given the loons heading the movement, 45 and his minions, I doubt they could plan the proverbial piss up in the brewery but it was an attempted violent overthrow of an election. So get out your thesaurus if you don't like the word coup, but your side has to own this for what it was, and the enquiry I am sure will clarify that enough even for you.

Not to mention, of course that all but one were lucky. In most other countries, these kinds of actions would have resulted in a bloodbath. They would have been met with armed troops, and the insurrection would have been put down forcefully with many being shot dead on the steps before getting into the building.

 

[Susheel]

Not to mention, of course that all but one were lucky. In most other countries, these kinds of actions would have been met with armed troops, and the insurrection would have been put down forcefully with many being shot dead on the steps before getting into the buildin.g

Oh...I am pretty sure that the only thing that prevented that from happening was that the majority of the "tourists" were white.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

You seem to be being contrarian for the sake of it.

I believe this is called 'giving the benefit of the doubt'.

A large group of people gathered at the behest of 45, and were whipped into a frenzy by rhetoric from45, Giuliani, Brooks etc. They were urged to go to The Capitol and "Stop the Steal democrats from getting the legitimately elected President they voted for".

ftfy

So get out your thesaurus if you don't like the word coup, but your side has to own this for what it was

Your 'side'? Surely you aren't suggesting that partisanship is behind theprestige's perfectly reasonable questions that he was Just Asking?