Protests Erupt in Cuba

[dann]

Agreed, but blaming the embargo for Cuba's economic ills we just another way of denying that the Cuban ecnomic system,modeled after the Soviet System, has been a miserable falure.
One reason why I suport lifitng the embargos is that the Cuban Regime and it useful idiots will no longer be able to use that as an excuse.

Could you tell us more about how you allegedly support putting an end to a blockade that is an attempt to make "the Cuban economic system" fail?
And what are the other reasons?

 

[dann]

Meanwhile in another part of the world:

With Thailand going through its worst pandemic wave to date, protesters in Bangkok defied COVID restrictions to call for Prime Minister Prayut Chan-O-Cha to step down.
Thai police on Sunday used rubber bullets, tear gas and water cannon to disperse some 1,000 protesters calling for Premier Prayut Chan-O-Cha to step down over alleged mismanagement of the COVID-19 pandemic.
It was unclear how many were injured in the clash.
The protest came as the kingdom registers record levels of coronavirus infections, with hospitals under severe strain.
Thailand: Police fire rubber bullets at anti-government protesters (DW, July 18, 2021)

It can only be a matter of hours before Biden and Blinken demand regime change ...

 

[TurkeysGhost]

i came in here to do apologism for the Cuban revolution, but I just can't given the record of human rights abuse. There's a horrible prison right there on the island that is openly torturing prisoners and shows no sign of ever stopping. Perhaps one day the torture camp can be liberated and those committing crimes against humanity will be held accountable.

Only a tankie would say this is ok.

 

[dudalb]

i came in here to do apologism for the Cuban revolution, but I just can't given the record of human rights abuse. There's a horrible prison right there on the island that is openly torturing prisoners and shows no sign of ever stopping. Perhaps one day the torture camp can be liberated and those committing crimes against humanity will be held accountable.

Only a tankie would say this is ok.

no one is saying it's OK, but this an obvious off topic deflect to take the heat off the Cuban Regime.
But thanks for showing there are still True Beleivers around...

 

[Sideroxylon]

no one is saying it's OK, but this an obvious off topic deflect to take the heat off the Cuban Regime.
But thanks for showing there are still True Beleivers around...

Plenty of useful idiots to keep it on though.

 

[dann]

no one is saying it's OK, but this an obvious off topic deflect to take the heat off the Cuban Regime.
But thanks for showing there are still True Beleivers around...

You seriously overestimate your own impact if you believe that you constitute heat that the Cuban government needs help to deflect.

Maybe it's time for the USA to ask Cuba to send the Henry Reeve Brigade to help fight the virus.
Florida appears to be in dire need of foreign intervention:

Inside A Florida Hospital During Nationwide Covid Surge (NBC News, July 20, 2021)

Cuba offered to help last year: Cuba is Ready to Aid the U.S. in its Fight Against COVID-19 (The Progressive Magazine, April 30, 2020)

In March 2020, 144 health workers from this Henry Reeve Brigade were sent by Cuba to assist Jamaica in dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic in Jamaica, also another group was sent to Italy to fight against the COVID-19 pandemic in Italy.
Henry Reeve (soldier) (Wikipedia)

 

[TurkeysGhost]

no one is saying it's OK, but this an obvious off topic deflect to take the heat off the Cuban Regime.
But thanks for showing there are still True Beleivers around...

Ok, let's talk seriously about it.

Is there any evidence that this current round of dissent in Cuba is significant or approaching broad enough popularity to threaten the current government?

Seems like every time there's some news report of public criticism of the Castro led government there's breathless reports of how we're on the verge of a color revolution breaking out and overthrowing the government.

Is this time different, or just another lucy pulling out the football incident?

 

[theprestige]

Ok, let's talk seriously about it.

Is there any evidence that this current round of dissent in Cuba is significant or approaching broad enough popularity to threaten the current government?

Seems like every time there's some news report of public criticism of the Castro led government there's breathless reports of how we're on the verge of a color revolution breaking out and overthrowing the government.

Is this time different, or just another lucy pulling out the football incident?

If you're going to talk seriously about it, you should probably cite some of these breathless reports.

 

[dann]

I don't think you actually want citations. Dudalb didn't have any.
But here goes:

Also in the park where Díaz-Canel went to confront those who intended to fracture the unity of the Party, the state, the government and the people, were father and son, Roberto Reyes Herrera, president of the Antonio Briones Montoto agricultural cooperative production unit, and Yosbel Reyes Sotomayor. The former recalled the hard times Cubans faced before 1959, which his parents told him about, and insisted that he is grateful for "the opportunities the Revolution has given me, that a few do not want to recognize."

His son likewise stated, "I’m sure that it was the Cuban-American mafia who paid the provocateurs who wanted to take advantage of the difficult situation Cuba is experiencing," adding, "The youth of San Antonio are on the side of our leaders, that is why we have taken to the parks and the streets.”

The flags, the cheers, the revolutionary conscience and confidence in those who are working every day to move our nation forward, left drowning in a sigh of impotence the malicious imperialist lackeys who made Benito leave his quiet Sunday at home. He insisted, "Let it be known, the people of Cuba are not those who disturbed the peace today, those who love the empire so much. The people of Cuba are the doctors, the scientists who made the vaccines, those of us who came to tell the President: Whatever it takes, Díaz-Canel, whatever it takes!"
San Antonio de los Baños: Whatever it takes, Díaz-Canel! (Granma.cu, July 12, 2021)

Now, I don't doubt that you can also find ordinary Cubans who aren't paid by USAID to instigate regime change, people who have simply suffered from the pandemic and the additional hardships that it added to the everyday lives of Cubans, but I am pretty sure that the people quoted in the Granma articles actually exist and actually said what they were quoted as saying. Unlike all the tough and strong men that Trump always talks about who come up to thank him with tears in their eyes:

It takes a lot of nerve for the U.S. President to assume a tone of concern for the Cuban people, while maintaining the genocidal blockade and allocating millions of dollars for subversion in our country.
The U.S. government should listen to the Cuban people demanding an end to the blockade (Granma.cu, July 15, 2021)

Of course, dudalb seems to think that the blockade doesn't really do anything to destroy the Cuban economy and that it wasn't an even harder blow when Trump added to it in the middle of the pandemic when tourism suffered everywhere.
To dudalb, it only provides an excuse for the Cuban state, but for some reason, Biden doesn't seem to want to remove that excuse ...


ETA: The Men in Black 'freedom fighters' I quoted in post 13 also don't represent the Danish people in its struggle against the the oppression of a Social Democratic PM, who is violating their human rights. They are the lunatic fringe, but probably not paid by foreign adversaries.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

If you're going to talk seriously about it, you should probably cite some of these breathless reports.

Seems incontrovertible that there's more popular unrest than previously, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's pretty significant political change in the near future.

The original generation of revolutionaries are all dead or retired, so the party doesn't have the benefit of extremely popular figures like Fidel anymore. Covid has intensified the economic shortfalls of the Cuban system.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some mild market reforms as a result, akin to what China or Vietnam went through in their history. A full blown color revolution seems unlikely, unless there is significant interference by foreign powers.

It seems relevant to be mindful what the current Cuban system is being compared to. What alternative existed for Cuba? What alternatives exist today? Would it be better if they went the way of some of their other South American peers, like Guatemala, that had their revolutions crushed by CIA back military coups? Would it have been better if huge swaths of Cuban land and the economy remained in the hands of powerful foreign corporations like United Fruit? Perhaps if the heirs of Batista and the US mob still ran the entire tourism industry, things on the island might be better.

Compared to the rest of South America, which suffers from enormous levels of intense poverty, is Cuba really doing that poorly? If there's going to be a good faith analysis of their system of government, seems that settings realistic standards of comparison is a necessary first step.

 

[dudalb]

Ok, let's talk seriously about it.

Is there any evidence that this current round of dissent in Cuba is significant or approaching broad enough popularity to threaten the current government?

Seems like every time there's some news report of public criticism of the Castro led government there's breathless reports of how we're on the verge of a color revolution breaking out and overthrowing the government.

Is this time different, or just another lucy pulling out the football incident?

THanks for proving my point: You are a supporter of the Cuban regime.

 

[dudalb]

Seems incontrovertible that there's more popular unrest than previously, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's pretty significant political change in the near future.

The original generation of revolutionaries are all dead or retired, so the party doesn't have the benefit of extremely popular figures like Fidel anymore. Covid has intensified the economic shortfalls of the Cuban system.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some mild market reforms as a result, akin to what China or Vietnam went through in their history. A full blown color revolution seems unlikely, unless there is significant interference by foreign powers.

It seems relevant to be mindful what the current Cuban system is being compared to. What alternative existed for Cuba? What alternatives exist today? Would it be better if they went the way of some of their other South American peers, like Guatemala, that had their revolutions crushed by CIA back military coups? Would it have been better if huge swaths of Cuban land and the economy remained in the hands of powerful foreign corporations like United Fruit? Perhaps if the heirs of Batista and the US mob still ran the entire tourism industry, things on the island might be better.

Compared to the rest of South America, which suffers from enormous levels of intense poverty, is Cuba really doing that poorly? If there's going to be a good faith analysis of their system of government, seems that settings realistic standards of comparison is a necessary first step.

"Communism is a great system. Only problem is the right people have not tried it."

Back in the 1930's you would have been eagerly defending Uncle Joe, no doubt.

 

[dudalb]

Don't see much difference between a Trumper trying to defend Trump and a True Beleiver trying to defend the Cuban regime:Noth have no problem with a dictatorship if it's of the right flavor.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Don't see much difference between a Trumper trying to defend Trump and a True Beleiver trying to defend the Cuban regime:Noth have no problem with a dictatorship if it's of the right flavor.

Three back to back posts and no response to a plainly stated question. Impressive.

 

[theprestige]

Seems incontrovertible that there's more popular unrest than previously, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's pretty significant political change in the near future.

Agreed. But where are the breathless reports of an imminent color revolution you were talking about? All I'm seeing is a little cautious optimism.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Agreed. But where are the breathless reports of an imminent color revolution you were talking about? All I'm seeing is a little cautious optimism.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this comment:

The Cuban people have suffered a lot under communist rulers. I wondered if this might be the beginnings of a historic uprising -- such as we saw in Eastern Europe thirty years ago -- but the protests need to become widespread and pervasive to be successful. We shall see.

Bloomberg News loaded a video -- apparently from today -- showing protests in what I think is Havana.

Cuban expats and American Cold Warriors seem to think every protest in Cuba is an opportunity for counter revolution.

 

[theprestige]

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this comment:

Yeah, I don't see how you get "breathless reports" from newyorkguy's cautious optimism.

Cuban expats and American Cold Warriors seem to think every protest in Cuba is an opportunity for counter revolution.

newyorkguy is a Cuban expat and an American Cold Warrior? And why get personal, anyway?

I think you're making up a controversy where none exists, for some sort of ill-conceived rhetorical advantage. It's weird. There's widespread protests in Cuba, which is pretty noteworthy in itself, and could well be an early indicator of things to come. Lots of stuff there worth talking about, but your spin seems to be, why do people always push a counter-revolution narrative. And then it turns out you don't actually know anyone who's pushing tha narrative. So not only is it a weird spin, it's not even a reality-based spin. What benefit were you hoping to get from this?

I hope this isn't some sort of pro-Castro attempt to poison the well against discussion of possible regime change in Cuba. It will suck if every time someone expresses cautious optimism, you read into it "American Cold Warriors are making breathless reports of an imminent counter-revolution".

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yeah, I don't see how you get "breathless reports" from newyorkguy's cautious optimism.


newyorkguy is a Cuban expat and an American Cold Warrior? And why get personal, anyway?

I think you're making up a controversy where none exists, for some sort of ill-conceived rhetorical advantage. It's weird. There's widespread protests in Cuba, which is pretty noteworthy in itself, and could well be an early indicator of things to come. Lots of stuff there worth talking about, but your spin seems to be, why do people always push a counter-revolution narrative. And then it turns out you don't actually know anyone who's pushing tha narrative. So not only is it a weird spin, it's not even a reality-based spin. What benefit were you hoping to get from this?

The controversy certainly exists generally, though I may be jumping to conclusions to ascribe that motive to posters here.

I don't think it's controversial to say that explicit regime change policies is basically the accepted party line for the Republican party, and probably not an insignificant number among the Democratic party as well. Perhaps my knee-jerk assumption that any US coverage about unrest in Cuba is a pretext for US intervention is misplaced in this case.

I hope this isn't some sort of pro-Castro attempt to poison the well against discussion of possible regime change in Cuba. It will suck if every time someone expresses cautious optimism, you read into it "American Cold Warriors are making breathless reports of an imminent counter-revolution".

As far as I can tell, Castro is a non factor these days. Fidel has been dead for years and his brother is only dragged out for rare symbolic efforts.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Don't see much difference between a Trumper trying to defend Trump and a True Beleiver trying to defend the Cuban regime:Noth have no problem with a dictatorship if it's of the right flavor.

You can’t see a difference? Good for you, chum.

 

[timhau]

Cuban expats and American Cold Warriors seem to think every protest in Cuba is an opportunity for counter revolution.

Just like in Belarus and other police states, every visible public protest shows cracks in the system.

BTW, there's nothing counter-revolutionary in attacking a decades-old entrenched system. It's part of the BS left-wing nostalgia that still tries to pass of Cuba as laid-back Latino socialism with rum and rhumba.