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Cont: Rioters storm and occupy the US Capitol - part 2

Belz... said:
Warp12 said:
In some weird way, I commend these morons.

It wasn't as though they just sat by their keyboards, complaining. They took action against what they truly believed to be a threat to our democracy.
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I don't think that's what they believe at all.
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He's not completely wrong.

They may have truly believed they were taking action against a threat to their democracy.

That doesn't mean they have any interest in sharing it with anyone else ... like people with dark skins, or Jews, or ... etc., etc..
 
quadraginta said:
He's not completely wrong.

They may have truly believed they were taking action against a threat to their democracy
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Given how vocal they've been about having Trump as a dictator for life, I think what they've been concerned about is their own privilege (imagined or real), fading away.
 
Warp12 said:
In that case, let's call the cause "protecting children". Taking action for such a cause is commendable.

That is independent of the fact that the people are morons, so they did the wrong thing.

I mean, I did say that the fact that they were morons could not be overstated enough. I actually mentioned them being morons, twice.
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Not all actions taken for commendable causes are commendable. I don't consider shooting up a pizza restaurant to be in any way commendable, even if the cause itself is commendable - which in this case it isn't because it has its foundation in lies and conspiracy theories.

The Jan 6 riot consisted of nothing but reprehensible actions with their foundation in nothing but reprehensible causes. Calling any aspect of it commendable is itself reprehensible.
 
I would have thought (silly old me) that the quality of the action has something to do with how praiseworthy it is, which is why most of us don't commend the forthrightness of the unabomber and John Wilkes Booth and such.
 
Warp12 said:
In some weird way, I commend these morons.

It wasn't as though they just sat by their keyboards, complaining. They took action against what they truly believed to be a threat to our democracy.

But that "moron" part can't be overstated enough.
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eerok said:
I don't think you've thought this through. For example, are mass shooters commendable in any way? They act on the stupid crap they believe as well. All monsters and villains do the same.
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arthwollipot said:
Not all actions taken for commendable causes are commendable. I don't consider shooting up a pizza restaurant to be in any way commendable, even if the cause itself is commendable - which in this case it isn't because it has its foundation in lies and conspiracy theories.

The Jan 6 riot consisted of nothing but reprehensible actions with their foundation in nothing but reprehensible causes. Calling any aspect of it commendable is itself reprehensible.
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Let's call the cause "defending our democracy". Taking action for such a cause is commendable.

That is independent of the fact that the people are morons, so they did the wrong thing.

I mean, I did say that the fact that they were morons could not be overstated enough. I actually mentioned them being morons, twice.

I know that is repetitive, but I figure that somehow the simple point is being missed. It is possible to find an aspect of a moronic endeavor that is commendable. Perhaps if the reality was that the election truly was "openly being stolen", we might look at these people in a different light. I'm certain that history would.
 
Warp12 said:
Let's call the cause "defending our democracy". Taking action for such a cause is commendable.

That is independent of the fact that the people are morons, so they did the wrong thing.

I mean, I did say that the fact that they were morons could not be overstated enough. I actually mentioned them being morons, twice.

I know that is repetitive, but I figure that somehow the simple point is being missed. It is possible to find an aspect of a moronic endeavor that is commendable. Perhaps if the reality was that the election truly was "openly being stolen", we might look at these people in a different light. I'm certain that history would.
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Yes, if things were different things would be different.

It's pretty rare in history for people to be out-and-out mustache twirling villains. Most of the time people committing atrocities have some misguided notion that they believe justifies their actions.

In an alternate universe, Ashli Babbitt is a martyr for the cause of freedom. In the real world, she's some Facebook poisoned moron who got clapped by a cop while taking part in a half-baked coup attempt.

The details matter a lot.

These people play a more active role in their own radicalization than is often let on. Nobody forced them to be radicalized to deeply believe demonstrably untrue lies that are obviously in service to their fascist leader. No one was strapped to a chair and forced to watch Newsmaxx or Fox News until they were brainwashed into believing that commies were rigging the election.

They were willful participants in the poisoning of their own mind, and the fact they are delusional morons is no excuse.
 
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Warp12 said:
Let's call the cause "defending our democracy". Taking action for such a cause is commendable.
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Nope, they were attempting to overthrow a democratic election, which is pretty much the opposite.
Perhaps if the reality was that the election truly was "openly being stolen", we might look at these people in a different light. I'm certain that history would.
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Perhaps if me auntie had balls . . . perhaps if I had a billion dollars. Perhaps if is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. The election wasn't "really, really, truly openly being stolen," though ironically these idiots were certainly trying.
 
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Resume said:
Nope, they were attempting to overthrow a democratic election, which is pretty much the opposite.
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In their minds, they were trying thwart an attempt to formalize fraudulent election results. Thus, they would be preventing the installation of an illegitimate regime.
 
Warp12 said:
In their minds, they were trying thwart an attempt to formalize fraudulent election results.
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I repeat: Given how vocal they've been about having Trump as a dictator for life, I think what they've been concerned about is their own privilege (imagined or real), fading away.
 
Warp12 said:
In their minds, they were trying thwart an attempt to formalize fraudulent election results. Thus, they would be preventing the installation of an illegitimate regime.
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The Post-Fact World Motto right there.
 
Warp12 said:
In that case, let's call the cause "protecting children". Taking action for such a cause is commendable.
That is independent of the fact that the people are morons, so they did the wrong thing.

I mean, I did say that the fact that they were morons could not be overstated enough. I actually mentioned them being morons, twice.
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Right......:rolleyes:
Given that most child abuse, physical, sexual and emotional, happens in the home why not smash into a random house?
 
Belz... said:
Why do violent radicals get more cheerleading excuses than innocent citizens?
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Because the trolls have figured out they can defend evil and get away with it by not defending evil but picking some vague, broad, almost truism level ideal and defending it instead... but only defending it when the topic is evil.

If you're a "Free Speech Advocate" but you only bring it up when the topic is fascists, Nazis, and racist then guess what, you're not really a free speech advocate, you're an apologists for fascists, Nazis, and racists.

I've love my wife. But I will never love my wife as much as certain "Oh can't we all get along" fetishes love peaceful discourse... in that moment right after a Nazi/Fascist/Racist gets punched in the nose.
 
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Warp12 said:
In their minds, they were trying thwart an attempt to formalize fraudulent election results. Thus, they would be preventing the installation of an illegitimate regime.
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Let's go reductio on this. In the mind of a paranoid schizophrenic, the floor manager at the call center is an alien reptoid here to mind-control the entire company, so it'd be a good thing to bring a rifle to work one day and stop him. After all, he's stopping the alien invasion before it has a chance to start.
 
Joe Random said:
Let's go reductio on this. In the mind of a paranoid schizophrenic, the floor manager at the call center is an alien reptoid here to mind-control the entire company, so it'd be a good thing to bring a rifle to work one day and stop him. After all, he's stopping the alien invasion before it has a chance to start.
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That's why mens rea alone makes no sense. One has to apply a reasonable person principle as well.
 
6 months in, an overview by the numbers:

Tuesday marked six months since thousands of Donald Trump supporters toppled and streamed past police barriers onto the grounds of the US Capitol, with hundreds making their way inside the building as lawmakers, staffers, and journalists scrambled to take shelter.

The investigation shows no signs of ending any time soon. New arrests have been unsealed in federal court every week since the riots. The FBI continues to solicit tips from the public to identify hundreds of suspects photographed and recorded on video at the scene. And a handful of plea deals made public so far confirm that investigators are working with cooperating defendants to build other cases.

Here’s what we know a half year in, based on BuzzFeed News’ ongoing analysis of court records and numbers provided by the Justice Department:
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https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zoetillman/capitol-riot-jan-6-investigation-arrests-six-months

535 arrests, with 289 charged with at least one felony. At least 165 charged with violence against police and at least 60 charged with weapons charges, including 2 for firearms. 70 rotting in jail awaiting trial, 13 have already plead guilty.
 
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