Merged General Holocaust denial discussion Part IV

[Belz...]

Let's have a look - this is a photo taken from inside the hoax 'gas chamber' at Auschwitz shown to millions ....

If you start with the premise that it's a hoax, of course you'll conclude that it's a hoax.

This was my touchstone I when I began studying the hoax. A gas chamber with an unsealed wooden door with a plate glass window. Only a complete fool would believe this idiocy.

In other words, you personally couldn't make sense of it, ergo it's a hoax. I admit it's not quite as stupid as "there are no stars in pictures from the moon", but it's close.

Unfortunately there is no shortage of complete fools, and this preposterous 'gas chamber' as been shown to millions and is still being shown, without guffaws.

And of course the people like you who know the least about a topic, as usual, think they know more than anybody else. Aside from "they're idiots", have you come up with any explanation as to why you are in the minority who think it's preposterous?

And yet, one did escape, you can hear her harrowing tale here ... she's still on the lecture circuit btw ....

And?

1. The Nazis planned to exterminate the Jews.
2. The Nazis built gas chambers to exterminate the Jews and disguised them as shower rooms.
3. The Nazis killed six million Jews.

Each component of the hoax is categorically false and completely without evidence.

Except where the Nazis downright said they were going to exterminate the Jews, and the testimony of people who were there, and the bodies found, and the fact that six million Jews went missing. Did they all go to Avalon?

Your theory doesn't make sense in view of all that. There are innumerable accounts of Jews being persecuted, ripped from their homes and families, crammed into trains, transported to camps where most of them disappeared, and those who tried to escape were shot, not to mention those casually killed on a whim by their captors. You really think that they had qualms about gassing them?

Say, what do you think of Jews in general?

 

[Belz...]

Hitler was a terrible orator with a silly voice, his speeches are awful to those who are not already mired in his disgusting politics. He had charisma, I will grant him that, but it seems to have been entirely based on 1-2-1 or small groups. Whenever he gave a speech to a large crowd he just seemed like a silly puffed up little failure of a man. Which is exactly what he was of course.

What kind of useless simpleton controls the vote so tightly and yet never breaks 40% in any election? Robert Mugabe and Mumar Gaddaffi would have been ashamed.

Now Stalin, there was a man who had a lot of charisma. His speeches were impressive, and you could almost fall for the lie he was feeding you. Almost, until you remembered the millions dead and starving due to his terrible agricultural revolution.

That's odd. From what I understand Stalin had a monotone, heavily-accented voice that made his speeches uninspiring.

 

[Belz...]

I'll say it again, you can' be a Nazi sympathizer and downplay the efficiency of the S.S. in regards to the final solution. If you want to be a Nazi you need to be proud of the Third Reich, not turn it into a victim.

You can't have it both ways.

It's a standard denier tactic: The holocaust didn't happen but the Jews had it coming!

 

[Belz...]

Just in case anyone was wondering about this claim about the doors, here's why it's not true:


https://imgur.com/gallery/NQ4QlTq

I could've bet money that it wasn't the original door. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Saggy, for someone who claims to have done research, clearly you haven't done your homework. Hell, you didn't even go to the site to check.

[qimg]http://www.holohoax101.org/102/RedCross.jpg[/qimg]

Based on the Bad Arolsen documents, the Nazi documents captured by the Russians, and their own records, in 1984 the Red Cross has estimated the TOTAL number of deaths for all prisoners, including but not limited to Jews, in Nazi concentration camps to be 373,468.

Do you understand German? Did you read what the paper says? It doesn't say what you said. Did someone tell you what it said and you just accepted it as fact?

 

[Rincewind]

As I recall, the figures from the Red Cross only refers to registered prisoners.

The vast majority of arrivals were herded to the gas chambers to be killed without ever been registered.

 

[TheSupermeerkat]

That's odd. From what I understand Stalin had a monotone, heavily-accented voice that made his speeches uninspiring.

Yes, I understood that to be true as well. It has been commented upon by some of his more notable biographers like Robert Conquest, Simon Sebag Montigiore, Dimitri Volgolkonov and Robert Service.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Huh, I had always assumed he was quite impressive. I stand corrected.

Of course, my point about Hitler still stands. The man was a joke.

 

[Warp12]

Huh, I had always assumed he was quite impressive. I stand corrected.

Of course, my point about Hitler still stands. The man was a joke.

For being such a "joke", people sure did take him seriously...and they found him to be a very persuasive speaker, as well.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Huh, I had always assumed he was quite impressive. I stand corrected.

Of course, my point about Hitler still stands. The man was a joke.

I've always been struck by the similarity of presentation between Hitler and numerous charismatic evangelical preachers. Utter nonsense delivered in an emotionally manipulative way that fires up slow-thinking rubes. Even Saggy's sig from Mein Kampf reminds me of religious dogma, as in "people who don't believe the magic book are stupid - it says so right in the magic book".

 

[Hans]

For being such a "joke", people sure did take him seriously...and they found him to be a very persuasive speaker, as well.

To understand Hitler you have to understand how devastated Germany was after WWI, the economy downturn, rioting, starvation and perhaps most harrowing the fighting between the factions and fear of the Communists taking over.

Hitler spoke to all of that and promised a re-birth - that he was a complete warmongering anti-semetic (and everybody else but 'Aryans') nutcase - was ignored.

 

[Nessie]

Another Nazi denying the holohoax -- I usually only pay attention to the hoax in the camps, but there is another side of it, the hoax on the eastern front. This is a particularly articulate account of the role of the Einsatzgruppen that I just became aware of ....
Otto Ohlendorf denies the hoax
[qimg]https://static-3.bitchute.com/live/cover_images/QVElCVzPUAd6/dfQvbIiyv9cu_320x180.jpg[/qimg]

https://famous-trials.com/nuremberg/1934-ohlentestimony

"COL. AMEN: In what respects, if any, were the official duties of the Einsatz groups concerned with Jews and Communist commissars?

OHLENDORF: The instructions were that in the Russian operational areas of the Einsatzgruppen the Jews, as well as the Soviet political commissars, were to be liquidated.

COL. AMEN: And when you say "liquidated" do you mean "killed"?

OHLENDORF: Yes, I mean "killed".

.....

COL. AMEN: So that before you commenced to march into Soviet Russia you received orders at this conference to exterminate the Jews and Communist functionaries in addition to the regular professional work of the Security Police and SD; is that correct?

OHLENDORF: Yes.

....

THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Niktchenko): In your testimony you said that the Einsatz group had the object of annihilating the Jews and the commissars, is that correct?

OHLENDORF: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Niktchenko): And in what category did you consider the children? For what reason were the children massacred?

OHLENDORF: The order was that the Jewish population should be totally exterminated.

THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Niktchenko): Including the children?

OHLENDORF: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Niktchenko): Were all the Jewish children murdered?

OHLENDORF: Yes.

 

[Foster Zygote]

For being such a "joke", people sure did take him seriously...and they found him to be a very persuasive speaker, as well.

Many people have also taken very seriously the likes of Pat Robertson and Donald Trump. And likewise, a great many people recognized such speeches as the intellectually empty theater that they were. But as Hans pointed out, Germany had been especially hard hit by the global economic depression, thanks in large part to the vengeful sanctions placed on it for a war that was really everyone's fault. Hitler knew what buttons to push to inspire the already angry and disillusioned. He preyed on the unhappy and desperate, just like televangelists do.

 

[Foster Zygote]

To understand Hitler you have to understand how devastated Germany was after WWI, the economy downturn, rioting, starvation and perhaps most harrowing the fighting between the factions and fear of the Communists taking over.

Hitler spoke to all of that and promised a re-birth - that he was a complete warmongering anti-semetic (and everybody else but 'Aryans') nutcase - was ignored.

Just as an aside, I'm suddenly reminded of Bill Burr talking about Owens winning the '36 Olympics - talking about Hitler leavening the stadium with his cronies. "That had to be a really uncomfortable car ride."

 

[Saggy]

https://famous-trials.com/nuremberg/1934-ohlentestimony

"COL. AMEN: In what respects, if any, were the official duties of the Einsatz groups concerned with Jews and Communist commissars?

OHLENDORF: The instructions were that in the Russian operational areas of the Einsatzgruppen the Jews, as well as the Soviet political commissars, were to be liquidated.

COL. AMEN: And when you say "liquidated" do you mean "killed"?

OHLENDORF: Yes, I mean "killed".

.....

Ouch. So, the vid I linked is bogus, as it omits the damning part of Ohendorf's testimony.

Ohlendorf's testimony is a real mixed bag. Here is more of his testimony, verbatim ... https://phdn.org/archives/www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Einsatz2c.htm

Q. Did you know about plans or directives which had as their goal the extermination on racial and religious grounds?

A. I expressly assure you that I neither knew of such plans nor was I called on to cooperate in any such plans. Lieutenant General [Obergruppenfuehrer] Bach-Zelewski testified during the big trial [before the International Military Tribunal] that the Reich Leader SS in a secret conference of all lieutenant generals made known that the goal was to exterminate thirty million Slavs. I repeat that I was neither given such an order nor was there even the slightest hint, given to me that such plans or goals existed for the Russian campaign. This is not only true for the Slavs but this is also true for the Jews. I know that in the years of 1938, 1939 and 1940, no extermination plans existed, but on the contrary, with the aid of Heydrich and by cooperation with Jewish organizations, emigration programs from Germany and Austria were arranged; financial funds even were raised in order to help aid the poorer Jews to make this emigration possible. In 1941, I personally helped in individual cases, where, for example, a representative of I. G. Farben called on me in order to overcome difficulties with the state police, when it was their intention also to let so-called bearers of secrets emigrate. Up to the very end I succeeded in giving such aid. Thus, at the beginning of the Russian campaign, I had no cause to assume that the execution order which we were given meant that any such extermination was planned or was to be carried out. During my time in Russia, I sent a great number of reports to the Chief of Security Police and SD in which I reported about the fine cooperation with the Russian population. They were never objected to. When Himmler was in Nikolaev in 1941, he neither made any reproaches about this, nor did he give me any other directives. I am rather convinced that where such an extermination policy was later carried out, it was not carried out by the order of the central agencies, but it was the work of individual people.

And a 'analysis' of Ohlendorf's testimony ... https://networks.h-net.org/node/350...s-einsatzgruppen-trial-1945-1958-atrocity-law

Ohlendorf admitted his crimes to his British and American captors in 1945, and then testified as a star witness for the prosecution at the International Military Tribunal (IMT). Ohlendorf hoped to save his skin by making himself valuable to the Allies. Described by Earl as supremely self-confident and intellectually arrogant, Ohlendorf also deluded himself into believing that his expertise in economics would pave the way for a postwar career. When, contrary to his expectations, he was placed on trial for his crimes, Ohlendorf invoked not only the superior orders defense, but also the argument that the mass killing of Jews in the Soviet Union had been a legitimate act of German self-defense against the threat emanating from Bolshevism. Earl never does make quite clear whether this was the disingenuous legal strategy of a man on trial for his life or actually a sincere expression of Ohlendorf's paranoid fear of Judeo-Bolshevism. The latter possibility was most certainly plausible, given the fact that Ohlendorf had spent his entire adult life in the Nazi party, having joined in 1925 at the age of eighteen.

Earl's careful dissection of Ohlendorf's testimony to Allied investigators, at the IMT, and at his own trial has some bearing on the debate over the decision-making process that led to the Final Solution. Ohlendorf claimed that, prior to the German invasion of the Soviet Union, he and the other Einsatzgruppen commanders had received verbal notification of an order from Adolf Hitler--a so-called Führerbefehl--according to which the Jews of the Soviet Union, including women and children, were to be killed. Several early historians of the Holocaust took Ohlendorf at his word. But Alfred Streim, a leading West German war crimes prosecutor, cast doubt on Ohlendorf's claim, suggesting that it had been a fabrication intended to undergird a legal defense based on superior orders. The consensus today among specialists is that Streim was correct. This position is buttressed by other evidence that the Einsatzgruppen were at first tasked with killing only Jews who were Communist officials, or were otherwise seen as threatening, and that only several weeks into the campaign were these political liquidations expanded into genocide of Soviet Jewry.[4]

My assessment - Ohlendorf, like Hoess, Blobel, thought by confessing to everything, including verbal orders from Hitler, he would skate .... but he was wrong.

Needless to say, I won't be mentioning him again.

 

[Belz...]

Ouch. So, the vid I linked is bogus, as it omits the damning part of Ohendorf's testimony.

Translation: "Oops, that part doesn't say what's convenient for me."

Needless to say, I won't be mentioning him again.

Yeah, it was embarrassing for you, wasn't it?

 

[Nessie]

Saggy, what is important, is that no Nazi who worked or visited an AR camp, or Chelmno or the Kremas at A-B, denied gassings. Indeed, they all agree that gassings took place inside those places.

The link below is to a denier forum, so here is the list of c300 witnesses, Nazi and Sonderkommado, who can be considered eyewitnesses to gassings;

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3196

Edited by Agatha: 

Trimmed for rule 4. Please visit the link above for the full list

A1) Auschwitz Nazis :

1) Rudolf Hoess Nuremberg - witness
Krakow - 1947
2) Maximillian Grabner Krakow - 1947
(Gestapo chief) interrogation Vienna 1.9.45
GARF f7201
3) Erich Mussfeldt Krakow - 1947
In charge of crem 2&3 (May - aug 44)
3) Josef Kramer 'The Beast of Belsen' Belsen - 1945
Birkenau camp commander
4) Fritz Klein Belsen - 1945
SS Doctor
5) Franz Hoessler Belsen - 1945
Main camp commander - 1944
6) Stefan Baretzki Frankfurt - 1965
Block chief
7) Perry Broad Affidavit 14.12.45 Minden
Gestapo report 13.07.45
Frankfurt - 1965
Hamburg - 1946 (witness tesch trial)

[snip]

That list does not include the Topf & Sons engineers who worked building the Kremas and gas chambers, who did not see gassings, but knew what they were building, details here;

https://www.topfundsoehne.de/ts/en/exhibitions/permanent_exhibitions/the_engineers/128724.html

 

[Saggy]

Saggy, what is important, is that no Nazi who worked or visited an AR camp, or Chelmno or the Kremas at A-B, denied gassings. Indeed, they all agree that gassings took place inside those places.

(That's nonsense, btw, but I'd have to look it up)

And, this is more to the point - And yet you cannot cite the testimony of even one that is not prima facie absurd. Prove me wrong.

Testimony of people on trial for their lives in hoax trials is worthless. Did you notice that the prosecutor questioning Ohlendorf in your post, Niktchenko, was the presiding judge at the Moscow trials of Zinoviev, et. al.?


My favorite of course is Elie Wiesel, who wrote a book about his year at Auschwitz when the Nazis were supposedly killing 10,000 Jews PER DAY in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. Wiesel doesn't mention gas chambers, he wrote that the Nazis killed the Jews by tossing them alive into burning pits, one for children, one for adults. His preposterous lies won a Nobel Prize and he was the first director of the USHMM, thus every Jew is guilty of these degenerate lies.

There is endless preposterous 'testimony' about the holohoax, but there is no testimony about the hoax in the camps that is not prima facie absurd.

And, there is not a shred of physical evidence. Unless you count the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz, of course.

Foremost hoax historian J. Van Pelt said as much ...
"Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . . it has become part of our inherited knowledge. I don't think that the Holocaust is an exceptional case in that sense. We in the future – remembering the Holocaust – will operate in the same way that we remember most things from the past. We will know about it from literature and eyewitness testimony. . ."

Van Pelt is right in that there is no physical evidence of the holocaust, but as for other historical events, like WW II for example, he may have overlooked a few things !

For crying out loud, we even have physical evidence of weapons from the Peloponnesian wars ....

 

[Belz...]

And yet you cannot cite the testimony of even one that is not prima facie absurd. Prove me wrong.

You don't seem very interested in actually responding to what people tell you.

You call it "prima facie" absurd but admit that you believed this "hoax", and that most people also do. So clearly it's not so obviously bogus.

Testimony of people on trial for their lives in hoax trials is worthless.

Why? Testimony is used in trials all over the world. Why is it worthless here?

And, of course, there is not a shred of physical evidence. Unless you count the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz, of course.

"There is no evidence. Well, yeah, there's that, but I have decided to ignore it."

- - -

You've avoided several of my points and questions from yesterday. Want to try again?

- Where are the 6 million missing Jews and millions of other missing people who went into those camps and didn't get out?
- Do you understand the mistake that you made with the door you brought up earlier?
- Aside from "they're idiots", have you come up with any explanation as to why you are in the minority who think it's preposterous?
- How about the earlier persecution of Jews by the Nazis, including shootings, destruction of property, removal of rights, etc.?
- How about Nazis saying they would exterminate the Jews?
- Did you understand where you went wrong about the document about deaths in those camps?
- What do you think about Jews in general, Saggy?

 

[TheSupermeerkat]

- What do you think about Jews in general, Saggy?

And to that, I'd like to add "what do you make of race mixers"?

 

[Hans]

And to that, I'd like to add "what do you make of race mixers"?

You might also ask him why he loves Nazis and Hitler in particular. What was so great about them Saggy? You do know that he is directly responsible for killing over six million Germans?