Merged A Thread for AlexPontik to Explain his Ideas

AlexPontik said:
...yes really :)...what ...NOT REALLY?!.

If you can't understand it the way it is written above, here's another way:

Humans have been writing stuff down, and when that happened exactly in their history...we really don't care here to say,

What I have to say here is that there is an impression in human beings that what they imagine, is what seems to be happening, and not that something else than what they can imagine seems to be happening, and that they can imagine how that is for the specific occasion.

Let's try to explain this with two examples:

Exampe1: Before anyone started writing something down, what was happening around anyone wasn't what was written down. (...because there wasn't something written down yet...in case someone doesn't understand)



Example2: After someone writes something down, that the specific someone believes is what seems to be happening, in order for the specific someone to really find this out, the specific someone really has to do experiments...

...and when you do an experiment you can have no results as an option, you can have the expected results, or something unexpected may happen.

Whether something unexpected may happen when one does an experiment, one can simply verify, and even simpler prove to everyone by considering the below experiment:

Pick a coin, choose a side and flip it as freely as you want to live.

After you think you can decide the side the coin ends up facing you right all the time, and before you come back to me with long and tedious stories...I have a question for you?

Regardless of the time and space you live, why didn't you come now to tell me about it, as I am writing this long reply here...if you could predict the future...then why didn't you predict it a bit earlier...look at how much stuff I have to write down here...waiting for you prophet...to come back to tell me that what seems to be happening is something you imagined, and not something else than anything anyone can imagine, which is pretty simple to say, pretty simple to observe, and seems pretty fair for any human...it seems to me.



and remember...

REALLY?

...yes really ...what ...NOT REALLY?!.

cause, otherwise, I don't know man, you give us your view here where everyone can watch.
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That still sounds like gibberish.
 
A thought experiment without money

We are doing the following thought experiment in the steps described below (with some instructions as well).


1.Imagine that you do something,
instructions 1: feel free to imagine, following the steps and instructions below from beggining until the end.


2.You do this something that you imagine in two different ways from its beginning until its end
instructions 2: you can come back to me with two stories, each with a beginning and and end, about something done in two different ways from its beginning until its end.


3.First you do it with money from its beginning until its end
instructions 3:
Trade is happening in the first story with money.

Clarifications...
This means that, either you do something for another, and another gives the agreed amount of money to you,
or another does something for you, and you give another the agreed amount of money to another...and the agreed amount of money...
is the amount of money you and another...agreed in order to trade.



4.Secondly you do it without money from its beginning until its end
instructions 4:
Trade is happening in the second story without money.

This mean that, you do this for another and another does that for you, and money isn't involved between the two of you, in the second story.



5. For the second way when you do it without money, you have to spend less time and effort to do it, from its beginning until its end
how to imagine:
In the first story when you do it with money, you have to spend more time and effort to do it, from its beginning until its end


6. I wonder would you say you are using your money wisely?

7. Because if you would, wait a minute before you start replying, and listen to me.

In both stories that you can come back to me, you are trading with another.

In one of the stories, you have to spend more time and effort, to do what you freely imagined you do with another, plus you have to also use money on top of having to spend more time and effort to do it, unlike the way you do it in the other story.

In the other story, you have to spend less time and effort, to do what you freely imagined you do with another, and as you also have to not use money in the second story, you don't have to spend time and effort to use money, unlike the way you do it in one of the stories.


8. So it seems to me that the other story, and not one of the stories, is what you would be looking for...if it seems sensible to you to spend less time and effort, and not get caught up in one of those stories...you know the ones I'm talking about, no?.. if not I am talking about one of the stories where you have to spend endless time and effort even for the simplest of things.

And this is why it seems to me that money reduces time and effort spend to trade, but let's add more clarifications from the beginning, so that we don't misunderstand each other...


what do you think will happen if you give money to your girlfriend...and the way you do it, whatever way that is...happens to increase the tme and effort she has to spend to feel good? (because I think you already know the answer here...)



e.g. imagine after you have sex with your girlfriend, you really had a good time, she really put in the time and effort for both to have a good time, and you really want to thank her...and you decide to give her money for that... (...and I hope you haven't tried that...)

and there is a range from don't give money to your girl after sex, to don't expect sex from a prostitute without money...

but this doesn't stop in sex...

you sometimes choose with people that are close to opt out of money if it messes up the relationship between the two of you, for the specific occasion...

...and you usually choose with strangers to use money, as you don't know them and can't trust exchanges without money.

and whether you choose one or the other depends on how much time and effort you have to spend either by using money or not, to do what you want to do.

And finally, the reason why this is important and why I am not simply making fun of you, just in case I am giving such an impression, is that...



When one wants to play tricks with you with money, what you agreed with that one, isn't getting done, or it takes significantly more time and effort to get done, and that one usually comes back with a complicated spaghettis story, that doesn't seem to end...and then that one keeps wasting your time and effort.



It seems simple and practical for one's life to remember that , it seems to me...but perhaps I'm wrong...this is why I wrote it here, to see people's questions/view/objections
 
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e.g. imagine after you have sex with your girlfriend, you really had a good time, she really put in the time and effort for both to have a good time, and you really want to thank her...and you decide to give her money for that... (...and I hope you haven't tried that...)

and there is a range from don't give money to your girl after sex, to don't expect sex from a prostitute without money...

but this doesn't stop in sex...
Click to expand...
Bet you're a hit on dates.
 
AlexPontik said:
We are doing the following thought experiment in the steps described below (with some instructions as well).


1.Imagine that you do something,
instructions 1: feel free to imagine, following the steps and instructions below from beggining until the end.


2.You do this something that you imagine in two different ways from its beginning until its end
instructions 2: you can come back to me with two stories, each with a beginning and and end, about something done in two different ways from its beginning until its end.


3.First you do it with money from its beginning until its end
instructions 3:
Trade is happening in the first story with money.

Clarifications...
This means that, either you do something for another, and another gives the agreed amount of money to you,
or another does something for you, and you give another the agreed amount of money to another...and the agreed amount of money...
is the amount of money you and another...agreed in order to trade.



4.Secondly you do it without money from its beginning until its end
instructions 4:
Trade is happening in the second story without money.

This mean that, you do this for another and another does that for you, and money isn't involved between the two of you, in the second story.



5. For the second way when you do it without money, you have to spend less time and effort to do it, from its beginning until its end
how to imagine:
In the first story when you do it with money, you have to spend more time and effort to do it, from its beginning until its end


6. I wonder would you say you are using your money wisely?

7. Because if you would, wait a minute before you start replying, and listen to me.

In both stories that you can come back to me, you are trading with another.

In one of the stories, you have to spend more time and effort, to do what you freely imagined you do with another, plus you have to also use money on top of having to spend more time and effort to do it, unlike the way you do it in the other story.

In the other story, you have to spend less time and effort, to do what you freely imagined you do with another, and as you also have to not use money in the second story, you don't have to spend time and effort to use money, unlike the way you do it in one of the stories.


8. So it seems to me that the other story, and not one of the stories, is what you would be looking for...if it seems sensible to you to spend less time and effort, and not get caught up in one of those stories...you know the ones I'm talking about, no?.. if not I am talking about one of the stories where you have to spend endless time and effort even for the simplest of things.

And this is why it seems to me that money reduces time and effort spend to trade, but let's add more clarifications from the beginning, so that we don't misunderstand each other...


what do you think will happen if you give money to your girlfriend...and the way you do it, whatever way that is...happens to increase the tme and effort she has to spend to feel good? (because I think you already know the answer here...)



e.g. imagine after you have sex with your girlfriend, you really had a good time, she really put in the time and effort for both to have a good time, and you really want to thank her...and you decide to give her money for that... (...and I hope you haven't tried that...)

and there is a range from don't give money to your girl after sex, to don't expect sex from a prostitute without money...

but this doesn't stop in sex...

you sometimes choose with people that are close to opt out of money if it messes up the relationship between the two of you, for the specific occasion...

...and you usually choose with strangers to use money, as you don't know them and can't trust exchanges without money.

and whether you choose one or the other depends on how much time and effort you have to spend either by using money or not, to do what you want to do.

And finally, the reason why this is important and why I am not simply making fun of you, just in case I am giving such an impression, is that...



When one wants to play tricks with you with money, what you agreed with that one, isn't getting done, or it takes significantly more time and effort to get done, and that one usually comes back with a complicated spaghettis story, that doesn't seem to end...and then that one keeps wasting your time and effort.



It seems simple and practical for one's life to remember that , it seems to me...but perhaps I'm wrong...this is why I wrote it here, to see people's questions/view/objections
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I gave up after a few sentences. This sort of formatting gives me headaches.
 
Here's how I imagine commerce (trade), with and without money:

With money:

I go to work every day for a month. At the end of the month, my employer hands me a check. I take the check to my bank, which carries out electronic banking operations that debit my employer's funds and credit mine.

Then I pull some cash out of my bank account and go to the bookstore. At the bookstore, I give the cashier some cash in exchange for a book.
​

Without money:

I go to work every day for a month. At the end of the month, my employer hands me dozen pairs of shoes, because that's what my employer makes. Carrying half a dozen pairs of shoes out to my car is already more effort than carrying a check.

Anyway, I haul the shoes over to the bookstore. I ask the clerk if they're willing to accept one or more pairs of shoes in exchange for a book. The clerk is actually willing, but she doesn't own the store. I could give her a pair of shoes and walk off with a book, but she'd still have to explain to the owner why his inventory went down and he doesn't even have a new pair of shoes to show for it. The clerk gives me the owner's business card. Maybe I can call him and work something out?

I call the owner, but he's not really interested in a new pair of shoes right now. Maybe the building landlord where he's leasing space for his bookstore might like a pair? If I can convince the landlord to accept a pair of shoes in lieu of some part of this month's rent, the bookstore owner will let me have a book in exchange.

So I call the landlord. It turns out he *is* in the market for a new pair of shoes. Two pairs, actually. That's his asking price. We meet up, I give him the shoes, and he calls his tenant the bookstore owner to let him know the rent's been discounted. The bookstore owner calls the store clerk to let her know I'm free to take one book of my choice. I go back to the bookstore and pick out my book.

Whew! That was a lot of work, but I got my book in the end. And I still have ten pairs of shoes left! Next stop: The grocery store. I just hope I have enough shoes left over to pay the rent.​

I'm sorry, but I can't imagine a way to do any of these trades without money, that takes less effort than doing it with money.
 
bruto said:
I am surprised you managed to parse this. I still have difficulty figuring out the idea of more or less time and effort and how that relates to the use or non use of money. In one place he says money increases time and effort, and then in another he appears to say it decreases it.

This is not meant as a mean-spirited criticism, but I truly do grasp what is being asserted here, and I am quite unconvinced that the reasons for whatever is being asserted here are correct.

I live in a little byway of society where people do each other favors often, sometimes with money involved, sometimes without. I don't see any reason to presume that a job done right uses more or less effort depending on the nature of the transaction.
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That's because you're trying to understand something written by someone who hasn't figured out the idea of more or less time and effort and how that relates to the use or non-use of language; he's mistaking a glut of words for a wealth of meaning.
 
Actually, a lot more like gibberish than it did before. Stuff like 'flip a coin as freely as you want to live' sounds like the kind of sentence produced by a Markov Chains program.
 
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theprestige said:
Without money:

I go to work every day for a month. At the end of the month, my employer hands me dozen pairs of shoes, because that's what my employer makes. Carrying half a dozen pairs of shoes out to my car is already more effort than carrying a check.
​
Click to expand...


Hi, I'm with the government and I'm here to help. I've got millions of feet, civilian and military, I need to shod. You've got a dozen, well, drop meet bucket. If only there was some medium of exchange where I could take a portion of a shoe, say only the lace, or just the left shoe and still manage to put a combat boot on every soldier, Marine, and sailor out there. What, you only have dress shoes, well, I'll make due. May I suggest track shoes (gym shoes or trainers for the brits) next month. Makes my job easier.

I tried to parse his nonsense, and got nowhere. And I can read Middle English AND Geatanese. I really don't get the disdain for this medium of exchange. They have nothing against the goods or services being exchanged, but the method is somehow dirty.​
 
I fail to see how certain personal relations (e.g. sex with a partner) can be related to every transaction, and the time and effort issue seems ridiculously simple minded. We do many things in many ways, and those of us not burdened by some magical theory of how things ought to be manage, most of the time, to do what we need to get what we need.

I might as well reuse an example I used in a similar debate with Gaetan. How does some cash-free exchange either with or without direct barter, make it less of an effort to get new brake rotors for my Hyundai. In the above case the alternative would appear to be that I would take my income in whatever barter is required, and then have to convert it, through steps that might or might not ever have been done before, into the result that someone in China machines a set of brake rotors, and someone manages to get them shipped to Vermont, and somehow or other, they get to me, for the equivalent of a pile of shoes or sawn logs or whatever it is I've been paid in. It's never actually specified how this might happen, or how long it might take.

Instead, I take the money, go to the autoparts store, and say "I need a pair of rotors for my Hyundai," and they go and get them and tell me they cost $32 apiece, or whatever, and I hand them the money and have what I need.

I suspect both Alex and Gaetan are looking at economy as if we were all living in little jungle tribes, exchanging flints for animal carcasses. I surmise that the real world has changed a little since then.
 
bruto said:
Instead, I take the money, go to the autoparts store, and say "I need a pair of rotors for my Hyundai," and they go and get them and tell me they cost $32 apiece, or whatever, and I hand them the money and have what I need.
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And even that is often more effort than is necessary. Pretty much 100% of my trades these days are done via letters of credit (i.e., credit cards). Nobody in my "transaction cloud" bothers with physical currency anymore. My employer does credit transfers from their bank account to mine. I draw on a line of credit to make all my purchases. I do credit transfers from my bank to my creditor to pay back the money they've loaned me to trade with.

(And really all a debit card is is a letter of credit for your own personal credit line, rather than someone else's.)
 
AlexPontik said:
...yes really :)After you think you can decide the side the coin ends up facing you right all the time...
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Whom do you think is doing that? Are you mistakenly assuming that people who use the scientific method believe that it can be used to predict random events, like a coin toss? Are you falsely believing that science claims to be able to predict the outcome of discrete, truly random events - that we think we can, for example, predict that ten consecutive coin flips will result in the sequence, H-H-T-H-T-T-T-H-H-T?

Science doesn't work that way.

In a random event with two equally possible outcomes (ignoring the very small probability of the coin coming to rest on its edge), any prediction regarding which side lands up will have a 50% chance of being right.

Science can predict, using probability and statistics, that the more times you repeat the event, the closer you'll get to having a 50% success rate in predictions. But no one here is claiming what you seem to think they are so your question is pointless. Feel free to ask some "psychic" why he/ she hasn't cornered the stock market - we'll happily join you. But don't make the mistake of assuming we think science gives us the answers to all questions.
 
Without money: trying to get gas for my truck to get to work. I have nothing the gas station guy wants, and he is overflowing with junk from the morning's customers anyway. He mentions, though, that his dating scene has been a little scarce and unzips for a half gallon, enough to get me to the next gas station.

Yeah, I hate this idea.
 
Thermal said:
Without money: trying to get gas for my truck to get to work. I have nothing the gas station guy wants, and he is overflowing with junk from the morning's customers anyway. He mentions, though, that his dating scene has been a little scarce and unzips for a half gallon, enough to get me to the next gas station.

Yeah, I hate this idea.
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Come on! Don't you see how blowing a guy for half a gallon of gas is way less effort than just using a letter of credit?
 
theprestige said:
Come on! Don't you see how blowing a guy for half a gallon of gas is way less effort than just using a letter of credit?
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Well for a half gallon of regular, if hope no more than a hand job is demanded. Gonna need at least a quarter tank to warrant a hummer.
 
I'd suggest one of Google's language translators, but I have no idea which one Alex is starting from. "Time Cube"? [emoji15]
 
True that we humans see, hear, taste etc a narrow range of reality and much lies outside of that. Did you have something specific in mind?
 
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