Merged A Thread for AlexPontik to Explain his Ideas

[bruto]

Ok. I need to replace a toilet.


That sentence is poorly written.
I can either do the replacement with a standard toilet or a high efficiency toilet.


Easy. I go to work. I get wages. I go to the home improvement store, buy the tools and materials with my wages and install the toilet. I will call this the "Money Story".

I am doing this job for me. How can I "do this for another"? This will not happen. The home improvement store will not sell me tools and materials without money. Without money my toilet will remain broken. This will be the "Free Story".
Your thought process is flawed. I cannot buy tools and materials without money. I cannot do the replacement. You falsely compare the absence of something to the absence of something else. For example, I can complain that I do not have any custom dragon riding saddles because I do not have any 21 leaf clovers. When I work, I get money. I spend my money how I wish. I have already provided my employer with work.

Nothing gets done based on the Free Story. I will still have a toilet to replace.


Yes, because I am replacing a toilet. A way I would be using my money foolishly would be to get toilet made out of wax paper, cotton balls, or a solid gold toilet. A ceramic toilet will be much stronger and will be more durable.

I already have.


This is not correct. I am not trading anything in the Free Story. I cannot get the tools and materials. In the Money Story things get done. In the Free Story, nothing gets done. The rest of your scenario fails.



"...the other story, and not one of the stories" is wrong and does not parse into English correctly.

Your whole thought process is wrong. I use money to pay for someone to make the ceramic toilet, the wax seal, the metal screws, the plastic seat and screws, and the paper instructions. If I do not pay I do not get any of those things.

If I teach my neighbor how to play a guitar, and she will make me a shirt, my toilet is still broken.

Please try again. If you need to, try using one of the online translators. You might even try posting in your native language so we can run it through.

One of my posts got sent off to never-never land, but I think and hope that a little bit of it is relevant enough to this discussion to repeat here.

I have an abandoned lake house, and on a recent visit discovered that someone had stolen the toilet. Now I can't vouch for where the perpetrator also got his tools, but it at least hints that there is a way to do your job without money.

I am not, however, entirely convinced that the elimination of money in this case is a positive move.

 

[abaddon]

We are doing the following thought experiment in the steps described below (with some instructions as well).


1.Imagine that you do something,
instructions 1: feel free to imagine, following the steps and instructions below from beggining until the end.


2.You do this something that you imagine in two different ways from its beginning until its end
instructions 2: you can come back to me with two stories, each with a beginning and and end, about something done in two different ways from its beginning until its end.


3.First you do it with money from its beginning until its end
instructions 3:
Trade is happening in the first story with money.

Clarifications...
This means that, either you do something for another, and another gives the agreed amount of money to you,
or another does something for you, and you give another the agreed amount of money to another...and the agreed amount of money...
is the amount of money you and another...agreed in order to trade.



4.Secondly you do it without money from its beginning until its end
instructions 4:
Trade is happening in the second story without money.

This mean that, you do this for another and another does that for you, and money isn't involved between the two of you, in the second story.



5. For the second way when you do it without money, you have to spend less time and effort to do it, from its beginning until its end
how to imagine:
In the first story when you do it with money, you have to spend more time and effort to do it, from its beginning until its end


6. I wonder would you say you are using your money wisely?

7. Because if you would, wait a minute before you start replying, and listen to me.

In both stories that you can come back to me, you are trading with another.

In one of the stories, you have to spend more time and effort, to do what you freely imagined you do with another, plus you have to also use money on top of having to spend more time and effort to do it, unlike the way you do it in the other story.

In the other story, you have to spend less time and effort, to do what you freely imagined you do with another, and as you also have to not use money in the second story, you don't have to spend time and effort to use money, unlike the way you do it in one of the stories.


8. So it seems to me that the other story, and not one of the stories, is what you would be looking for...if it seems sensible to you to spend less time and effort, and not get caught up in one of those stories...you know the ones I'm talking about, no?.. if not I am talking about one of the stories where you have to spend endless time and effort even for the simplest of things.

And this is why it seems to me that money reduces time and effort spend to trade, but...

...let me also get your view...

...what is it in the above that you don't understand?

Well let me tell you the same tale from the point of view of someone who cares about people.

My friend has a problem, something broke. Said friend has not the money to get it fixed. Said friend in red faced embarrassment appeals for help. Me being a decent person, I go sort whatever it is gratis. Recipient of my efforts gets problem sorted, no issue. Price is zero, I wont here of it, I know you are strapped, your money is no use to me and all that. Months later, same person is back wanting to pay me stupid cash because now they actually have some cash. Still I refuse payment. Eventually, after the insistence, because surprise, that person is just as honest as me, I reach an agreement with them. 5 bucks and we call it quits. I did a job for you and you paid me something. All quits, all good. I do not need a couple of hundred buck, nor the five hundred bucks it would have likely cost you elsewhere. I did something for a friend. That's it. If it makes my friend feel better about it to even offer a token payment, then I am content to accept some token payment because it makes my friend feel better.

Somehow, you think that is wrong. Now you think about that.

 

[bruto]

Well let me tell you the same tale from the point of view of someone who cares about people.

My friend has a problem, something broke. Said friend has not the money to get it fixed. Said friend in red faced embarrassment appeals for help. Me being a decent person, I go sort whatever it is gratis. Recipient of my efforts gets problem sorted, no issue. Price is zero, I wont here of it, I know you are strapped, your money is no use to me and all that. Months later, same person is back wanting to pay me stupid cash because now they actually have some cash. Still I refuse payment. Eventually, after the insistence, because surprise, that person is just as honest as me, I reach an agreement with them. 5 bucks and we call it quits. I did a job for you and you paid me something. All quits, all good. I do not need a couple of hundred buck, nor the five hundred bucks it would have likely cost you elsewhere. I did something for a friend. That's it. If it makes my friend feel better about it to even offer a token payment, then I am content to accept some token payment because it makes my friend feel better.

Somehow, you think that is wrong. Now you think about that.

I am surprised you managed to parse this. I still have difficulty figuring out the idea of more or less time and effort and how that relates to the use or non use of money. In one place he says money increases time and effort, and then in another he appears to say it decreases it.

This is not meant as a mean-spirited criticism, but I truly do grasp what is being asserted here, and I am quite unconvinced that the reasons for whatever is being asserted here are correct.

I live in a little byway of society where people do each other favors often, sometimes with money involved, sometimes without. I don't see any reason to presume that a job done right uses more or less effort depending on the nature of the transaction.

 

[AlexPontik]

REALLY? ...yes really...what...NOT REALLY?!.

• Something else than what humans can imagine has been happening around humans up to now since the beginning of humans, regardless the fact that most humans don’t get that…
• or else before humans, what does it seem to you was happening in reality?..
• Something that happened before humans, but that Humans imaginEd afteR they startEd GETting REAL?!.

 

[ynot]

• Something else than what humans can imagine has been happening around humans up to now since the beginning of humans, regardless the fact that most humans don’t get that…
• or else before humans, what does it seem to you was happening in reality?..
• Something that happened before humans, but that Humans imaginEd afteR they startEd GETting REAL?!.

Take your medication . . . REALLY! . . . Take your medication . . .

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Word salad AGAIN?! I must go to a different restaurant.

 

[HansMustermann]

Take your medication . . . REALLY! . . . Take your medication . . .

Could be the result of a stroke, though. It's THE most likely cause of aphasia. Don't think medication can do a whole lot for that.

'Course, that sometimes makes me wonder if it's right to make fun of some poor drain bamaged guy who probably just had a stroke at some point. Then I remember: oh, wait, I'm an ass hole. Of course it's right

 

[autumn1971]

Could be the result of a stroke, though. It's THE most likely cause of aphasia. Don't think medication can do a whole lot for that.

'Course, that sometimes makes me wonder if it's right to make fun of some poor drain bamaged guy who probably just had a stroke at some point. Then I remember: oh, wait, I'm an ass hole. Of course it's right

Wait, would brain damage also affect typing ability? I know there’s overlap in brain functions.

 

[Belz...]

• Something else than what humans can imagine has been happening around humans up to now since the beginning of humans, regardless the fact that most humans don’t get that…

Depends what you mean by imagine. Now that we know what was going on, say on the quantum level, we can imagine it.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Is this still the philosophy thread? I mean it's sort of hard to tell.

 

[HansMustermann]

Wait, would brain damage also affect typing ability? I know there’s overlap in brain functions.

Aphasia/dysphasia isn't a dysfunction of articulating speech. If it's something like inability to use the tongue or mouth muscles right, or to formulate a plan for using those muscles, it's dysarthria or apraxia not aphasia.

Aphasia/dysphasia is when it's at the level of language cognition. The patient has trouble creating a sentence or respectively parsing one. Like someone with Broca's aphasia (a.k.a., expressive aphasia) might parse stuff like prepositions and articles as just meaningless filler in a sentence, and conversely might not use them in their own sentences. Or might be unable to produce an understandable sentence at all, if the damage is extensive enough: even though the individual words may be perfectly ok, and they may be perfectly able to pronounce or type those words, it might not make any grammatical or semantic sense to anyone else.

Again, that's not at the level of articulating speech, it's at the level of composing the sentence in the first place.

But basically, TL;DR version: typing is also controlled by the brain. And making sentences goes through the same circuitry as for speech. So, yes, brain damage can affect your typing too.

 

[HansMustermann]

Is this still the philosophy thread? I mean it's sort of hard to tell.

Different philosophy thread, buddy

 

[AlexPontik]

does this way become clearer to any of you?

· Something else than what humans can imagine has been happening around humans up to now since the beginning of humans…
· or else before humans, what does it seem to you was happening in reality?..
· Something that happened before humans, but that Humans imaginEd after their histoRy startEd GETting REAL?!.

 

[Jim_MDP]

does this way become clearer to any of you?

· Something else than what humans can imagine has been happening around humans up to now since the beginning of humans…
· or else before humans, what does it seem to you was happening in reality?..
· Something that happened before humans, but that Humans imaginEd after their histoRy startEd GETting REAL?!.

That was barely a rephrase so, no it isn't clearer.
Try this... what is the "something else" and we'll go from there.

 

[theprestige]

• Something else than what humans can imagine has been happening around humans up to now since the beginning of humans, regardless the fact that most humans don’t get that…
• or else before humans, what does it seem to you was happening in reality?..
• Something that happened before humans, but that
<formatting snipped>

Please explain the basic idea in two or three simple sentences, that don't end in questions and don't require me to fill in the blanks. Otherwise I fear I am too stupid to understand what you're talking about.

 

[HansMustermann]

does this way become clearer to any of you?

· Something else than what humans can imagine has been happening around humans up to now since the beginning of humans…
· or else before humans, what does it seem to you was happening in reality?..
· Something that happened before humans, but that Humans imaginEd after their histoRy startEd GETting REAL?!.

Maybe it would be simpler if you focused on actually explaining what you want to say, instead of trying to feel smart by using caps to take jabs at the other posters? I mean, ooh, look, you can spell something by capitalizing random letters inside words. I'm sure that would have passed for smart in the first grade, but that's about it. If you're past that age, it doesn't really make the grade even for special needs schools.

 

[HansMustermann]

That said, ok, let's answer the retarded questionnaire:

· Something else than what humans can imagine has been happening around humans up to now since the beginning of humans…

According to the setup in your question, I don't know, but neither do you. If humans can't even imagine X, then we never really observed an X, or not in enough detail to figure out it's an X. And probably wouldn't even know it even if we saw one, if it's fundamentally impossible for a human to picture it in their head. And again, unless you think that you're not human, neither do you. Because you have the same type of brain that can't imagine it.

I.e., it's already starting on the wrong foot. It's a question that fundamentally goes nowhere. You can't go from there to claiming that anything exists or happened, because whatever that thing is, you already established that you don't know. You fundamentally can't have evidence for it, and neither can anyone else if they can't even imagine it.

Evidence in logic being only that which supports or invalidates a conclusion. If you don't have a sound (which includes valid) inference from the data to the conclusion, then it's not even evidence at all. But if you can't even imagine the entity you'd try to support, then you don't know what inference(s) you'd need to support it.

So basically from the start you just made this an uninteresting mental masturbation exercise that fundamentally can't lead anywhere.

· or else before humans, what does it seem to you was happening in reality?..

Lots of things. The big bang. The universe expansion. The first stars forming, and then blowing up. The gravity collapse that formed the sun. The accretion of the planets. The Theia impact. Self-replicating RNA. The first cells. Etc.

There are literally billions of billions of billions of things that have been happening.

So you'll have to be a lot more specific than that, for it to really go anywhere.

· Something that happened before humans, but that Humans imaginEd after their histoRy startEd GETting REAL?!.

History was always real, unless we're talking pseudo-history or historical fiction.

Plus, again, that covers billions of billions of things. Since the condition includes humans imagining it, basically that's the cut-off point. Everything that was happening around until that point, yep, suddenly humans could also imagine it when they weren't directly looking at it.

So, yeah, it covers pretty much everything. Trees. Grass. The moon. The sun. Sunsets. Tigers. Hunting. Eating. Taking a dump. Having a wank. Etc.

You'll have to be a lot more specific than that.

 

[AlexPontik]

...yes really ...what ...NOT REALLY?!.

If you can't understand it the way it is written above, here's another way:

Humans have been writing stuff down, and when that happened exactly in their history...we really don't care here to say,

What I have to say here is that there is an impression in human beings that what they imagine, is what seems to be happening, and not that something else than what they can imagine seems to be happening, and that they can imagine how that is for the specific occasion.

Let's try to explain this with two examples:

Exampe1: Before anyone started writing something down, what was happening around anyone wasn't what was written down. (...because there wasn't something written down yet...in case someone doesn't understand)



Example2: After someone writes something down, that the specific someone believes is what seems to be happening, in order for the specific someone to really find this out, the specific someone really has to do experiments...

...and when you do an experiment you can have no results as an option, you can have the expected results, or something unexpected may happen.

Whether something unexpected may happen when one does an experiment, one can simply verify, and even simpler prove to everyone by considering the below experiment:

Pick a coin, choose a side and flip it as freely as you want to live.

After you think you can decide the side the coin ends up facing you right all the time, and before you come back to me with long and tedious stories...I have a question for you?

Regardless of the time and space you live, why didn't you come now to tell me about it, as I am writing this long reply here...if you could predict the future...then why didn't you predict it a bit earlier...look at how much stuff I have to write down here...waiting for you prophet...to come back to tell me that what seems to be happening is something you imagined, and not something else than anything anyone can imagine, which is pretty simple to say, pretty simple to observe, and seems pretty fair for any human...it seems to me.



and remember...

REALLY?

...yes really ...what ...NOT REALLY?!.

cause, otherwise, I don't know man, you give us your view here where everyone can watch.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Damn that's some good philosophy.

 

[AlexPontik]

otherwise written down the above is (so as to avoid endless stories):
· Something else than what humans can imagine has been happening around humans up to now since the beginning of humans…
· or else before humans, what does it seem to you was happening in reality?..
· Something that happened before humans, but that Humans imaginEd after their histoRy startEd GETting REAL, and not something else than what they can imagine?!.