[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Matthew Best]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...der-and-sex-we-undermine-sporting-competition

Fairness is at the heart of sport and without separate categories for the sexes there would be no women in Olympic finals

"Trans women should be able to live their sporting lives to the fullest so if research can find a way for them to participate in female sports without advantage, brilliant. Until then, remove the idea of gender altogether and revert to sex-based categories – a female category and an open category that can cater for trans men who have taken testosterone, trans women and men."

 

[Warp12]

You can call yourself whatever you want.

I think there are valid arguments, however, that these classifications should not extend beyond that. I am not reading 77 pages to validate my opinion. It doesn't require any validation.

 

[gnome]

I do wonder on the sports issue if it will ultimately come down to that--testosterone levels.

 

[d4m10n]

I do wonder on the sports issue if it will ultimately come down to that--testosterone levels.

That's already how the IOC does it now.

It's an open question as to whether evening those levels out is enough to compensate for other advantages, e.g. musculature, bone-density, frame size.

 

[theprestige]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...der-and-sex-we-undermine-sporting-competition

Fairness is at the heart of sport and without separate categories for the sexes there would be no women in Olympic finals

"Trans women should be able to live their sporting lives to the fullest so if research can find a way for them to participate in female sports without advantage, brilliant. Until then, remove the idea of gender altogether and revert to sex-based categories – a female category and an open category that can cater for trans men who have taken testosterone, trans women and men."

I do wonder on the sports issue if it will ultimately come down to that--testosterone levels.

Here we were thinking that transsexuality was on track to destroy women's sports. In fact it looks like it might end up destroying all sports.

Probably not, though. Dividing sports by testosterone level rather than sex would defeat the purpose of transsexual athletes. It's actually in their best interests to maintain segregation by sex in sports.

 

[Belz...]

I think what she is saying is that feminists have been working for decades to eliminate the stereotypes of "things that men do" and "things that women do" and this sounds like a return to classifying people as men or women based on those stereotypes. So she sees it as a regression.

I know what she's saying. But that's not what I was saying. And now that entire post that I made has been reduced to a single sentence.

The word "gender" by itself is such broad term that you can't really talk meaningfully about it without specifying what gender aspect you are talking about.

Except it's only so because some have tried to change the meaning of the word. As I've explained in my recent post you can look at the issue from the historical meaning of the term and none of those definitional problems arise.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I do wonder on the sports issue if it will ultimately come down to that--testosterone levels.

Maybe as a stop-gap.

But at some point there does need to be an understanding that testosterone is NOT the only physical difference that confers an athletic advantage.

Overall size is a factor. Even if some females may be very tall for a female, they aren't as tall as the tallest males. The longest legs on a female are still shorter than the longest legs on a male. That is going to have an effect on sports that depend on stride-length, like running, hurdles, even long jump.

At a very minimum, males and females have different pelvises - and that is NOT affected by testosterone at all. It's a skeletal differentiator. Our pelvises are shaped differently, and we have slightly different attachment points for our muscles, tendons, and ligaments surrounding our hips and femurs. Our thighs fall at different angles relative to our midline. This produces differences in balance, gait, and stride. Even if a male and a female are the same height, with the same inseam, they will have different stride lengths as a result.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's already how the IOC does it now.

It's an open question as to whether evening those levels out is enough to compensate for other advantages, e.g. musculature, bone-density, frame size.

Sure... although it's still a highly questionable metric that IOC uses. Transwomen are required to have a testosterone level of no more than 10 nmol/L.

The normal range for adult males is 9.2 nmol/L to 31.8 nmol/L. The normal range for adult females is 0.3 and 2.4 nmol/L.

So the IOC's guideline is for transwomen to have a testosterone level that is no more than 4 times that of the high range for females.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I know what she's saying. But that's not what I was saying. And now that entire post that I made has been reduced to a single sentence.

That wasn't my intention. I agreed with everything else you wrote, and said so. That sentence was the only one that I had any comment on.

 

[Belz...]

That wasn't my intention. I agreed with everything else you wrote, and said so. That sentence was the only one that I had any comment on.

Not you, Emily, but the follow ups were unfortunate.

It was not my intention to bolster gender roles and expectations, but simply to make a point about how the various definitions of gender can work.

 

[gnome]

Probably not, though. Dividing sports by testosterone level rather than sex would defeat the purpose of transsexual athletes. It's actually in their best interests to maintain segregation by sex in sports.

It depends whether you presume "they" are merely people who are insincere about their gender identity and just seeking a competitive advantage, or whether "they" are sincere and simply wish to be able to participate in sports like everyone else.

Before solving for malfeasance, it makes sense to decide how it should work for people who aren't trying to game the system.

 

[mgidm86]

Maybe as a stop-gap.

But at some point there does need to be an understanding that testosterone is NOT the only physical difference that confers an athletic advantage.

Overall size is a factor. Even if some females may be very tall for a female, they aren't as tall as the tallest males. The longest legs on a female are still shorter than the longest legs on a male. That is going to have an effect on sports that depend on stride-length, like running, hurdles, even long jump.

At a very minimum, males and females have different pelvises - and that is NOT affected by testosterone at all. It's a skeletal differentiator. Our pelvises are shaped differently, and we have slightly different attachment points for our muscles, tendons, and ligaments surrounding our hips and femurs. Our thighs fall at different angles relative to our midline. This produces differences in balance, gait, and stride. Even if a male and a female are the same height, with the same inseam, they will have different stride lengths as a result.

Testosterone level isn't enough. This athlete trained and competed as a man for years. There are so many other considerations.

Does New Zealand get to decide on their own that a man can compete with women and no other country has a say in this? Is there a world Olympic Committee that still needs to approve this?

Who should we be mad at, NZ or the "Olympics" - sorry I don't know much about the Olympics organization.

 

[Manger Douse]

I don't believe it's possible for a male bodied athlete to sincerely believe they can compete fairly with females

 

[theprestige]

It depends whether you presume "they" are merely people who are insincere about their gender identity and just seeking a competitive advantage, or whether "they" are sincere and simply wish to be able to participate in sports like everyone else.

Before solving for malfeasance, it makes sense to decide how it should work for people who aren't trying to game the system.

My conclusion is based on the assumption that the goal of every sincere transsexual is to perform as, and be seen as, the opposite sex. I don't know if this is a medical necessity or a deeply held belief, but either way the goal is the same.

Doing away with sex-based segregation in sports, simply to avoid having to allow transwomen to compete with women, repudiates that goal. The competitive advantage is an unfortunate but necessary side effect of honoring their transition and affirming their valid lived identity. It's in the interest of sincere transsexuals to retain sex-based segregation in sports and everywhere else we find it.

You can't very well affirm someone's identity as a woman, if there are no special things for women that they now have access to by virtue of their transition.

 

[The Atheist]

Who should we be mad at, NZ or the "Olympics" - sorry I don't know much about the Olympics organization.

The International Olympic Committee.

They're a bunch of silly old farts out of touch with reality.

The testosterone rule was brought in due to Caster Semenya and two other intersex athletes winning all three medals at Rio in the women's 800m. The IOC didn't factor in trans athletes, and as usual, they'll shut the door too late.

Weightlifting NZ is the governing body here, and took the opportunity presented to them. I find that abhorrent, but at least it's shining a bright light on the situation and will ensure changes are made to eligibility in the future.

I think, on balance, we should consider ourselves lucky a whole load of other second-rate male athletes haven't taken Hubbard's ploy, or we'd be seeing every female world record broken.

Just one example is the 6615 men have run equal to or faster than FloJo's extant 100m women's (drug and wind-assisted) world record set in 1988. Any one of those guys could take testosterone-suppressing drugs, pull on a pair of panties, win gold and take the record.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...der-and-sex-we-undermine-sporting-competition

Fairness is at the heart of sport and without separate categories for the sexes there would be no women in Olympic finals

"Trans women should be able to live their sporting lives to the fullest so if research can find a way for them to participate in female sports without advantage, brilliant. Until then, remove the idea of gender altogether and revert to sex-based categories – a female category and an open category that can cater for trans men who have taken testosterone, trans women and men."

interesting that 'fairness' means that it would be unfair for no women to compete at the Olympics but perfectly fair for no transwomen to compete at the Olympics.

I don't think 'fairness' is really their aim at all.

 

[Matthew Best]

interesting that 'fairness' means that it would be unfair for no women to compete at the Olympics but perfectly fair for no transwomen to compete at the Olympics.

I don't think 'fairness' is really their aim at all.

Where did they (who is "they" in this context, incidentally?) say that it would be fair for no transwomen to compete at the Olympics?

 

[gnome]

My conclusion is based on the assumption that the goal of every sincere transsexual is to perform as, and be seen as, the opposite sex. I don't know if this is a medical necessity or a deeply held belief, but either way the goal is the same.

Doing away with sex-based segregation in sports, simply to avoid having to allow transwomen to compete with women, repudiates that goal. The competitive advantage is an unfortunate but necessary side effect of honoring their transition and affirming their valid lived identity. It's in the interest of sincere transsexuals to retain sex-based segregation in sports and everywhere else we find it.

You can't very well affirm someone's identity as a woman, if there are no special things for women that they now have access to by virtue of their transition.

Don't let me extend this into a straw man, so if I've got you wrong definitely say it better--but it sounds like you're supposing there's no point to changing one's gender identity unless there are segregated activities?

 

[theprestige]

interesting that 'fairness' means that it would be unfair for no women to compete at the Olympics but perfectly fair for no transwomen to compete at the Olympics.

I don't think 'fairness' is really their aim at all.

I'd say it's totally fair for transwomen to compete at the Olympics as men. They're men by birth, men by physical development, men in pretty much every way that counts for athletic competition.

Why *shouldn't* they compete according to their sex, rather than their gender? Last time I checked, this thread had more or less agreed that binary sex was real, and sex-based segregation was the one area in which transwomen aren't women. Have we come back around to the idea that sex doesn't matter in sports?

 

[Filippo Lippi]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...der-and-sex-we-undermine-sporting-competition

Fairness is at the heart of sport and without separate categories for the sexes there would be no women in Olympic finals

"Trans women should be able to live their sporting lives to the fullest so if research can find a way for them to participate in female sports without advantage, brilliant. Until then, remove the idea of gender altogether and revert to sex-based categories – a female category and an open category that can cater for trans men who have taken testosterone, trans women and men."

I found the podcast by Tucker that's linked to in the article absolutely compelling. The advantages that come from exposure to androgens during puberty are, almost entirely, baked in. Testosterone reduction barely touches them, if at all.

Apparently.