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Useful Idiots of the Day

Perforatu said:
Why did the picture catch your attention? I was under the impression that the Kaffiya is a fairly common garb in Palestine.
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That specific Kaffiya has Arafat's black/white checked pattern. It's a political statement that demonstrates a partisan bias on the woman's part.
 
I was under the impression that the Kaffiya is a fairly common garb in Palestine.
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You would be wrong. Women do not wear one. She displayed it as a message of solidarity (with her captors, it could be said), and that is the only reason. It is not a common garb for females -- in fact I have never seen any woman wear one, and I've lived there for close to 20 years.

You are making a claim that runs contrary to the facts as they are commonly known -- can you provide any evidence?

(PS - mycroft, the black/white checked pattern is not "Arafat's" per-se. It is a common garb, of the moslem males, and not something that Arafat brought into fashion, he merely became the one famous for it! Your assessment of the keffiya being a 'statement' in this particular case is 100% correct and I am calling perferatu to back up his unreasonable claim to the contrary).
 
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Mycroft said:
Okay, so it seems you're prone to making statements without foundation, and then turning to ad-hominem attacks when asked to back them up.
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Since you brought it up:

Not all insults are ad hominems. An ad hominem attack is responding to an argument by attacking the one who makes it. Simply attacking someone doesn't cut it.

Get it right, please.
 
Skeptic said:
"That's OK, kidnap me / kidnap our daughter! I realize you're only doing it because you are opressed by the evil jews! I won't even say anything bad about you--that's so unfair to your image!"
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Hutch said:
Umm, Skeptic, any comment? (I tend to concur with Perforatu) And while you're at it, would you please apologize to Zep, I am getting tired of looking at his current signature...
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Let's break this translation down:

Kidnap me: check

Kidnap our daughter: check

You're only doing it because you are oppressed by the evil Jews!: check

I won't say anything bad about you (terrorists), it's unfair to your image: check.

It seems to me that everything in Skeptic's translation is supported by the news article. I don't see that this translation requires a specific anti-Semitic statement from Kate Burton, nor does the translation directly claim that Kate Burton is an anti-Semite. Rather, her statement is a statement of support for people who believe that being prevented from firing rockets at Israelis is oppression.
 
webfusion said:
wow! An immediate and total deterioration of the thread due to personal attacks... I would hope the moderator deletes melendwyr and perforatu, suspends their account for the remainder of this year, and lets us proceed without being subjected to hijackings of this type.
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Huh? I just asked a couple of questions relating to the observations you and Skeptic made about coverage of the kidnapping incident! I thought that was pretty on-topic... :confused:

(Or am I not getting the joke? Calling for a suspension of accounts "for the remainder of the year" on December 31st seems ineffective somehow...)
 
webfusion said:
(PS - mycroft, the black/white checked pattern is not "Arafat's" per-se. It is a common garb, of the moslems, and not something that Arafat brought into fashion, he merely became the one famous for it! Your assessment of the keffiya being a 'statement' in this particular case is 100% correct and I am calling perferatu to back up his unreasonable claim to the contrary).
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Oh come on! If it had been a blue keffiya it wouldn't make the same political statement, agree?
 
Melendwyr said:
Since you brought it up:

Not all insults are ad hominems. An ad hominem attack is responding to an argument by attacking the one who makes it. Simply attacking someone doesn't cut it.

Get it right, please.
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How about attacking someone in place of backing up your statements?
 
Mycroft said:
Let's break this translation down:
It seems to me that everything in Skeptic's translation is supported by the news article. I don't see that this translation requires a specific anti-Semitic statement from Kate Burton, nor does the translation directly claim that Kate Burton is an anti-Semite. Rather, her statement is a statement of support for people who believe that being prevented from firing rockets at Israelis is oppression.
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I see your point, Mycroft, but Skeptic did put that in " ", so he in effect made it his point this is exactly what they were saying

If he had said it was his interpertation then perhaps it might have been clearer to Perforatu and I (he did said Translation, however, imposing his view on her, IMHO).

We'll await Skeptics' response.
 
webfusion said:
I would urge the Israelis to deport her, on the next flight out.
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And I would urge her to have her picture taken on Cindy Sheehan's son's grave. Perhaps a nice luncheon with Sheehan afterwards . . .

I can't understand why people who are non-violently supporting a cause they believe in are chastised at every turn. Certainly this lady qualifies as an idiot, and certainly she isn't a champion of the Israeli cause (and trust me, I have plenty of sympathy for the Israelis who can't get a fair shake no matter what), but how can she support both at once? Would that get her chastised by BOTH sides of this ridiculous and long-standing feud, or would they both embrace her?

As part Native-American, I've sympathized with the Palestinians who continue to live in poverty because the Israelis see the land as rightfully theirs. I've also sympathized with the Israelis who have paid in buckets of blood for wanting to return to the land of their roots and religion. I wonder how THAT would go over in America regarding the Native-Americans and Mexicans (are you out there, Dustin?)?

This whole affair is like a well-worn road with wagon ruts for us each to fall into to defend our side. There are people on both sides of this argument that I respect and urge out onto the road where you can see beyond the gouge in the landscape. It's too passionate a subject for those living out the problem to solve, and too passionate a subject for us here to do little more than draw lines and hurl insults.

We need less passion and more empathy. The families and friends of those killed in this long war all feel the same sorrow, the same empty ache for their loved one.
 
webfusion said:
You are making a claim that runs contrary to the facts as they are commonly known -- can you provide any evidence?
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What claim? I said I was under the impression that the Kaffiya is a fairly common garb in Palestine. (In fact, I've often heard referred to it as a "Palestine scarf" here in the Netherlands.) I wasn't even aware that women don't usually wear one. So I asked you to elaborate on why that particular picture caught your fancy - I simply would've glossed over it and thought nothing of it.

Mycroft said:
It's a political statement that demonstrates a partisan bias on the woman's part.
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Ahhh, now I understand. Thanks.
 
Melendwyr said:
Anyone who does not condemn the Palestinians as inhuman monsters and recognize the terrible injustices perpetuated upon the Israeli people is necessarily antisemitic. At least, in zenith's world.
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Well let's go to the judges:

My post says "Palestinian terrorists who kidnapped her"... your post says "Anyone who does not condemn the Palestinians as inhuman monsters"

It is you Melendwyr who equates "all Palestinians" with "Palestinian terrorists"....not me. Therefore I am sorry to say but your post is nothing more than a big fat straw man fallacy and it's hypocritical to boot.
 
Mephisto said:
We need less passion and more empathy. The families and friends of those killed in this long war all feel the same sorrow, the same empty ache for their loved one.
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It's rather like the British-Irish conflict in that sense: what superficially appears to be a religious conflict is really a long-standing ethnic one.

Of course, the Celts, the Saxons, and the Normans are ALL oppressors, having invaded the region and slaughtered and/or displaced all of the native inhabitants. Nobody ever speaks for them.
 
Mycroft said:
Let's break this translation down:

Kidnap me: check

Kidnap our daughter: check

You're only doing it because you are oppressed by the evil Jews!: check

I won't say anything bad about you (terrorists), it's unfair to your image: check.

It seems to me that everything in Skeptic's translation is supported by the news article. I don't see that this translation requires a specific anti-Semitic statement from Kate Burton, nor does the translation directly claim that Kate Burton is an anti-Semite. Rather, her statement is a statement of support for people who believe that being prevented from firing rockets at Israelis is oppression.
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"Oppresed by the evil Jews" certainly seems like an anti-semitic sentiment to me...

Also, although it may seem like splitting hairs, I would like to point out that a lack of condemnation does not equal actual support. Support can be one reason for the lack of condemnation (and given what I've since learned about the political value of her wearing a Kaffiya after her release, certainly a possibility here), but there can be many other reasons for her reluctance to condemn her captors.
 
zenith-nadir said:
It is you Melendwyr who equates "all Palestinians" with "Palestinian terrorists"....not me.
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Actually, it's everyone who punishes the many for the actions of the few that are guilty... including the group of Usual Suspects of which you are a member, zenith, certain members of the Israeli state, and certain members of the Palestinian terrorist groups.

I say we invite them all to Brown 32, distribute some purple and green armbands, and then vent their air into space.
 
Mephisto said:
Zenith usually has harsh words for terrorists (no matter what flavor) - if you'll look back at the OP, I think you'll realize it's Skeptic who thinks everyone hates Jews.
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I hate terrorists. I lothe that useful idiots like Kate Burton have nothing bad to say about Palestinian terrorists who kidnapped her and her family. That is an abuse of Kate Burton's human rights which is totally ironic considering she is a human rights activist.

By saying
"she could not say a bad word about her captors, who always asked whether they needed anything"
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...is nothing less than being an apologist for Palestinian terror.

To add insult to injury she and her family did not stay in Gaza "with her friendly neighborhood terrorists" they fled to the safety of Jerusalem upon release. :boggled:
 
Melendwyr said:
It's rather like the British-Irish conflict in that sense: what superficially appears to be a religious conflict is really a long-standing ethnic one.

Of course, the Celts, the Saxons, and the Normans are ALL oppressors, having invaded the region and slaughtered and/or displaced all of the native inhabitants. Nobody ever speaks for them.
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You're right of course, but I wouldn't write off religion as a catalyst too quickly. It certainly has a bearing in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The worst thing about it all is we're apparently doomed to repeat history. When we're not killing each other over physical characteristics, language or culture, we're using religion or politics to justify our hatred.
 
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