[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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I've had time to put a little more thought into an issue I talked about earlier: that the crux of the disagreement here comes from definitions.

I think most people over 40 understand "woman" to mean "adult human female" because that's how the word has historically being understood, at least in English and western languages. So gender and sex are, to them, very closely related. In fact the former is entirely included in the latter. So the idea that you could "identify" as something else is bizarre. But if "trans person" is defined as someone with a specific type of body dysphoria, then the whole thing makes sense, just not the idea of pronouns and such.

The other view stems from the idea that "gender" means "gender roles" i.e. the expectations of a specific society with regards to a sex. Now, it doesn't matter if one agrees with the conflation for now. If one takes that view, then "identify as a woman" simply means "has behaviours and ways that are more associated with females in this society". Suddenly dysphoria is no longer required for a person to be "trans" and it all makes sense again. In fact, even the new pronouns make sense, as do "nonbinaries", since you might not fit with any set of sex-based expectations. Of course that doesn't solve the question of restrooms, for instance, until one decides whether the "men" restrooms are really "male" restrooms or not, etc. But at least it's a step towards understanding the other side of the conversation.

For myself, I don't think there's a need to interpret "gender" as "gender roles" since the latter does the job of expressing that idea quite well. Of course that means trans men aren't actual men and that someone isn't "trans" merely because of identification; it requires the dysphoria. And it makes nonsense out of the new pronouns, but then I don't think those are actual issues. More important are recognising dysphoria as an important issue, and treating those with the condition with respect and dignity, protecting them against discrimination and so on. And as I stated before I am in favour of government financial aid for the transition process, which ostensibly solves the dysphoria.

However, there might be a compelling reason to make the terms change. We still need to have the discussion for restroms and sports and such regardless, but at least we can have that discussion using the same definitions, even if only for the sake of that conversation.

One way or another, mind you, it's not just how one feels that would determine their "gender", but how they act. I'm open to the idea, but I don't think there's any concept for "feeling" like a particular gender, especially since gender has never been defined as how one feels, nor does anyone know how anyone else feels to make the determination.

Overall good post. My opposition comes in at the tail end:

One way or another, mind you, it's not just how one feels that would determine their "gender", but how they act.

This sets up back 50 years. We're right back to "real boys don't cry" and "there's something wrong with that girl who doesn't like skirts and pink".
 
This sets up back 50 years. We're right back to "real boys don't cry" and "there's something wrong with that girl who doesn't like skirts and pink".

I'm completely baffled at how you managed to read the above into what I wrote. It's patently obvious that if one defines "gender" as a set of social expectations, then one's gender depends on how they act in that particular society. I'm saying that if that's how you define the term, then you can't argue that how one feels determines said gender. There's just no basis, under any working definition of gender, for that.

Of course if you define "gender" in the "historical" way, the issue doesn't present itself, but I will remind you that even today there are expectations of each gender. That's unfortunately inescapable.
 
I'm completely baffled at how you managed to read the above into what I wrote. It's patently obvious that if one defines "gender" as a set of social expectations, then one's gender depends on how they act in that particular society. I'm saying that if that's how you define the term, then you can't argue that how one feels determines said gender. There's just no basis, under any working definition of gender, for that.

Of course if you define "gender" in the "historical" way, the issue doesn't present itself, but I will remind you that even today there are expectations of each gender. That's unfortunately inescapable.

I think what she is saying is that feminists have been working for decades to eliminate the stereotypes of "things that men do" and "things that women do" and this sounds like a return to classifying people as men or women based on those stereotypes. So she sees it as a regression.
 
I'm completely baffled at how you managed to read the above into what I wrote. It's patently obvious that if one defines "gender" as a set of social expectations, then one's gender depends on how they act in that particular society. I'm saying that if that's how you define the term, then you can't argue that how one feels determines said gender. There's just no basis, under any working definition of gender, for that.
The set of social expectations is "gender role". How one feels is "gender identity". The word "gender" by itself is such broad term that you can't really talk meaningfully about it without specifying what gender aspect you are talking about. Even if it sometimes used as a shorthand for either gender role or gender identity, or something else.
 
I'm completely baffled at how you managed to read the above into what I wrote. It's patently obvious that if one defines "gender" as a set of social expectations, then one's gender depends on how they act in that particular society. I'm saying that if that's how you define the term, then you can't argue that how one feels determines said gender. There's just no basis, under any working definition of gender, for that.

Of course if you define "gender" in the "historical" way, the issue doesn't present itself, but I will remind you that even today there are expectations of each gender. That's unfortunately inescapable.

I think what she is saying is that feminists have been working for decades to eliminate the stereotypes of "things that men do" and "things that women do" and this sounds like a return to classifying people as men or women based on those stereotypes. So she sees it as a regression.

Yes, pretty much what TomB said.
 
This is dehumanizing and offensive toward women. I believe that the up/down vote results, as well as the comments demonstrate that female humans object to being re-labeled as body parts and function so that a small number of transgender people can feel included.

No Apologies. Period. | Midol

They have a whole set of these, referring to women as "menstruators". It's insulting.
 
So, sure, it might be the case that females use nail polish more than males do. And that sex-based association will be present as a result. Nail polish is only 'gendered' however, if males face social disapproval for wearing nail polish, or if females face social disapproval for failing to wear polish.
Okay, I suppose that makes sense. I cannot think of any examples of accessories which are used primarily (say 95% or so) by one sex which don't come with social disapproval in addition to sex-based association.
 
Here we go (or has this been mentioned?).

Tokyo Olympics: Kiwi weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to become first transgender athlete to compete at the Games

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/to...pete-at-the-games/DM7ZUGW3HQ2IDL6O7OSAXT3YJU/

Hubbard, who won silver at the 2017 world championships and represented New Zealand at the 2018 Commonwealth Games before suffering a serious injury in competition, will likely become the first transgender athlete to compete at the Olympics.

While she will be the oldest weightlifter at the Games, she will also be a genuine medal hopeful with her qualifying lifts ranking her at fourth out of the 14 qualifiers in the 87kg-plus category.

Hubbard has competed in men's weightlifting competitions before transitioning in 2013 but didn't compete internationally.

However, recent studies suggest transgender women maintain an athletic advantage over their cisgender peers even after a year on hormone therapy.

No kidding?

Photo in article. "That's a man, baby!"
 
New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to become 1st transgender Olympian

Weightlifter Laurel Hubbard will become the first transgender athlete to compete at an Olympics next month after she was selected to the New Zealand team for the Tokyo Games on Monday.

The 43-year-old Hubbard, who competed in men's events before transitioning in 2013 . . .

The entire story is only two sentences long, so I snipped the second one mid-sentence to comply with the rules. .


Hubbard is also apparently the oldest person ever to compete in the Olympics as a weightlifter. (At least I couldn't find any older example. The oldest man to compete as a man at the Olympics was 41 at the time.)

So already Hubbard's age makes her an outlier.
 
I've had time to put a little more thought into an issue I talked about earlier: that the crux of the disagreement here comes from definitions.

I think most people over 40 understand "woman" to mean "adult human female" because that's how the word has historically being understood, at least in English and western languages. So gender and sex are, to them, very closely related. In fact the former is entirely included in the latter. So the idea that you could "identify" as something else is bizarre. But if "trans person" is defined as someone with a specific type of body dysphoria, then the whole thing makes sense, just not the idea of pronouns and such.

The other view stems from the idea that "gender" means "gender roles" i.e. the expectations of a specific society with regards to a sex. Now, it doesn't matter if one agrees with the conflation for now. If one takes that view, then "identify as a woman" simply means "has behaviours and ways that are more associated with females in this society". Suddenly dysphoria is no longer required for a person to be "trans" and it all makes sense again. In fact, even the new pronouns make sense, as do "nonbinaries", since you might not fit with any set of sex-based expectations. Of course that doesn't solve the question of restrooms, for instance, until one decides whether the "men" restrooms are really "male" restrooms or not, etc. But at least it's a step towards understanding the other side of the conversation.

For myself, I don't think there's a need to interpret "gender" as "gender roles" since the latter does the job of expressing that idea quite well. Of course that means trans men aren't actual men and that someone isn't "trans" merely because of identification; it requires the dysphoria. And it makes nonsense out of the new pronouns, but then I don't think those are actual issues. More important are recognising dysphoria as an important issue, and treating those with the condition with respect and dignity, protecting them against discrimination and so on. And as I stated before I am in favour of government financial aid for the transition process, which ostensibly solves the dysphoria.

However, there might be a compelling reason to make the terms change. We still need to have the discussion for restroms and sports and such regardless, but at least we can have that discussion using the same definitions, even if only for the sake of that conversation.

One way or another, mind you, it's not just how one feels that would determine their "gender", but how they act. I'm open to the idea, but I don't think there's any concept for "feeling" like a particular gender, especially since gender has never been defined as how one feels, nor does anyone know how anyone else feels to make the determination.
I think the conclusion of this line of reasoning is that the issue isn't transgenderism, but transsexualism. If you divorce gender roles from sex, all that's left of transgenderism is gender stereotype cosplay. Men wearing dresses to signal that they'd like to be seen as women.

Emily's Cat is right that this is a huge problem for women's rights and gender equality. It reinforces the idea that it only counts as womanhood if you wear certain clothes and behave in certain ways.

Too, what does being "seen as a woman" really mean? The only places in our society where gender really matters is as a proxy for sex. Medicine, sports, safe spaces.

There's a huge difference between "I was born with a penis but I feel more comfortable being seen and addressed according to the feminine stereotypes of our society" and "I was born with a penis but I feel more comfortable being seen and addressed as if I had a vagina".

The former, as I said, is just gender stereotype cosplay. It's easily solved by simply letting it ride. Dresses, makeup, pants, beards, whatever. Doesn't matter. Shouldn't matter. Employment, housing, common courtesy, none of these things should be affected by what typical or atypical gender role you wish to express. The only real problem left is that wearing makeup and a dress doesn't necessarily mean you're transgender.

The latter is a huge problem for society and for transsexuals. Telling someone they can cosplay vagina-having all they want, but as a male they won't be competing with female athletes, is a denial of their self-identity. Telling someone they can cosplay, but as a male their presence doesn't count towards requirements of a gender-balanced organization, is a denial of their self-identity.

If it's a matter of sex-agnostic, gender-only transitioning, that's pretty much a done deal. That war was won years ago, mainly by feminists. But also by pioneers like Twiggy, David Bowie, Eddie Izzard, Tilda Swinton, and many many others, some well known, some known only to their local communities.

If it's a matter of sexual transitioning, well. That's all that's left, isn't it?

In a nutshell, the question is this: Can your gender self-identity be satisfied with "you're a woman, but not for the purposes of women's sports"? If it can, then you're already pretty much set in modern western society. If it can't, then the issue isn't transgenderism, it's transsexuality.

And if it's transsexuality, that raises for me some serious mental health questions. I would very much like to see a clear and unambiguous scientific position about what the condition entails, and what treatment is actually recommended. We don't normally prescribe amputation for people with BIID. Should we prescribe women's sports leagues for people with Sexual Identity Disorder?
 
On the other hand, Midol actually is just for menstruating people, as opposed to all women.

Not all women menstruate, but only women menstruate. And everybody knows this.

Reducing 99% of their customer market to a bodily function, and robbing us of our humanity in the process is insulting. It's demeaning. It's offensive.

If you are happy to be defined by a bodily function, great. But don't insist that any other female human on the planet must be fine with being reduced to a process and referred to without respect for the entirety of our personhood.
 
In other news... It's pride month and my employer is completely on board. They even include helpful articles and self-study modules on LGBTQIA+ topics. Oddly, the overwhelming majority of the focus is on the T element of that, even though they say the entire acronym out loud every single time.

Their self-study module includes the Genderbread Person, and comes with some very handy definitions.

Here are some of the definitions (not linked, because it's a corporate intranet site).

Sex refers to physical and biological features, and might include things like chromosomal make-up, genitalia, and hormone output.

That's a decent start. Moving on:

Gender identity on the other hand is a social construct. This means it's the attributes, characteristics, clothing, attitudes, roles and more that we as a society typically assign to a sex. The most baseline example of this is that boys like blue, and girls like pink. Of course, a female child does not come out of the womb intrinsically enamored with pink. It's something they may pick up from family, parents, tradition, media, toys and so much more. Beyond color preferences however, gender also impacts hw you're perceived, what privileges (or lack thereof) you may be privy to, what stereotypes people hold about you, etc.

Hmm. This reinforces my observation that gender identity is entirely based on stereotypes. It's almost entirely defined in terms of stereotypes. As a plus, however, at least it's not defining gender identity in terms of how one innately feels on the inside as a circular definition. Additionally, the definition recognizes that these stereotypes are ASSIGNED on the basis of sex, and that those assignations come with (or without) social privileges.

Unfortunately, the internally written article then goes on to give examples where a person is born male, but doesn't identify with the culture and aspects of being a woman... and so that person is a transgender woman.

On the plus side, the author isn't claiming that sex is 'assigned at birth', which I like, even though it's a small thing. Additionally, they don't redefine the person to be a woman, but a transgender woman. Again, it's small thing, but small things matter.

On the downside though... because gender identity is defined in terms of conformation to social stereotypes based on sex, it means that a LOT of people end up being told that they aren't their actual gender. It means that I, as a female who disregards the vast majority of "girly" stereotypes, and who finds them to be utterly ridiculous, would be viewed by these definitions as being transgender. This definition makes me either a man or non-binary... regardless of whether I think that makes any sense at all.

The definition of sexual orientation that they're using is... interesting and a bit incomplete:

Sexual orientation is not purely sexual! A person's orientation is simply the genders or identities a person is romantically or physically attracted to.

:confused: Apparently sexual orientation isn't about sexual attraction? Additionally, I don't really know what distinction they're drawing between romantic and physical attraction. I mean, sure, it's possible to be physically attracted to someone without being emotionally attracted to them... But if you're "romantically" attracted to someone without being sexually attracted to them, that's called friendship. Emotional attraction and bonding in the absence of sexual attraction is familial love. If both are present it's romantic love. If only sexual attraction is present, it's just lust.

The article also defines gender and orientation to be on a spectrum... but doesn't include sex in that, which is a plus.

All in all, I think this is a fairly reasonable tight-rope walk by my employer. I feel like maybe they threw in the towel on sexual orientation, because I don't think there's a way to include, ferinstance, male people who are exclusively attracted to male people and are commonly referred to as homosexual men... alongside transgender identified female people who are exclusively attracted to male people and call themselves homosexual men.
 


This is the third mention of this story. I can't believe this person is being allowed into the Olympics as a woman.

I think it's wrong and will be terrible for women's sports. This is what many people feared would happen, now here it is. I think I'd be very upset if I were a woman, and for many reasons, but I'm not a woman. I'm upset anyways.

What do you all think?
 
This is the third mention of this story. I can't believe this person is being allowed into the Olympics as a woman.

If you lived in NZ, it's easily understandable.

Being down at the bottom of the Pacific, and being one of the most isolated countries on earth, Kiwis have a natural inferiority complex. To try to compensate for that, we put our sports people who beat international competition on the highest pedestal. Probably half of our knights and dames earned their titles through being good at sports, and part of that is winning medals at the Olympics.

I'm pretty sure we've never won any medal at weightlifting, so the governing body was desperate to take any measures to win one, including naming a bloke in the women's team.

I was disgusted by Hubbard being allowed to compete against women at the start of this thread, three years ago, and I'm even more disgusted now.

I think it's wrong and will be terrible for women's sports. This is what many people feared would happen, now here it is. I think I'd be very upset if I were a woman, and for many reasons, but I'm not a woman. I'm upset anyways.

What do you all think?

I can tell you for free the actual women who will be lifting are disgusted by it, and my only hope is that the freak breaks the same arm as it did in the Commonwealth Games.

Fun fact about Laurel Hubbard, its father was a one-term mayor of Auckland.
 
Yeah just for ‘I’m not completely ideologically blinded’ points I’ll say that I don’t think the line is all that clear but I do think that no matter where it is, Hubbard is waaay over it.
 
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