ISIS teenager wants to come home

[Darat]

She joined a terrorist group with the aim of aiding and abetting them.

Why do you think she was capable at the age she joined ISIS of making such a decision? One may say it was different than grooming an under age child for sex, but that was in fact part of her grooming.

I think she was the victim of grooming, and I would hope we would try to help such victims

 

[Elaedith]

Depending on your definition...



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-jihadi-bride-shamima-begum-prepared-suicide-bombers-p08chx5p5

These are only allegations, made people under interrogation who have a strong interest in appearing helpful to interrogators. She has not been convicted of anything. This policy allows people to essentially receive what could be a death sentence without due process.

 

[Butter!]

Why do you think she was capable at the age she joined ISIS of making such a decision? One may say it was different than grooming an under age child for sex, but that was in fact part of her grooming.

I think she was the victim of grooming, and I would hope we would try to help such victims

I've come around to this viewpoint.

 

[theprestige]

So did this guy. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56941544

He got 4 years and gets to still be a citizen. Weird that.

Doesn't seem that weird to me. Begum's citizenship is open to question only because she's not in the country and her Bangladeshi heritage provides a tenuous legal fig leaf. Your example is not sufficiently analogous to support your conclusion of weirdness.

 

[theprestige]

Why do you think she was capable at the age she joined ISIS of making such a decision? One may say it was different than grooming an under age child for sex, but that was in fact part of her grooming.

I think she was the victim of grooming, and I would hope we would try to help such victims

I think you and Roland are both correct, and that Planigale is incorrect. She has participated in terrorism. The question is, how responsible was she, for her participation.

 

[Aber]

These are only allegations,

I was responding to a poster who claimed there were no allegations.

 

[RolandRat]

She is still unapologetic. All her comments are "woe is me". I have zero sympathy for her.

 

[cullennz]

Thought the whole international law thing said you can't stop her coming home

 

[RolandRat]

Why do you think she was capable at the age she joined ISIS of making such a decision? One may say it was different than grooming an under age child for sex, but that was in fact part of her grooming.

I think she was the victim of grooming, and I would hope we would try to help such victims

If a child sex trafficking victim willingly travelled to another country and aided and abetted the group in committing murder, I'm pretty confident they would be held accountable for their actions in a court of law.

Thought the whole international law thing said you can't stop her coming home

Our Government ha stated she has dual nationality and as such we can remove her British citizenship as it won't leave her stateless.

 

[cullennz]

Sorry mate. Missed what other citizenships she holds

If there a more I would go turf her to someone else to deal with

 

[ponderingturtle]

If a child sex trafficking victim willingly travelled to another country and aided and abetted the group in committing murder, I'm pretty confident they would be held accountable for their actions in a court of law.

And of course criminally charged as the prostitutes they are. This should cause them to loose their citizenship and be rendered stateless. Honestly we need to revoke citizenship from more people for acts as minors.

 

[theprestige]

Sorry mate. Missed what other citizenships she holds

If there a more I would go turf her to someone else to deal with

The UK government is saying that she has inherited Bangladeshi citizenship from her parents. There is some dispute about this. I don't think Bangladesh has agreed with this.

Also, international law isn't a thing.

 

[RolandRat]

And of course criminally charged as the prostitutes they are. This should cause them to loose their citizenship and be rendered stateless. Honestly we need to revoke citizenship from more people for acts as minors.

I'm sorry, what now?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm sorry, what now?

Just trying to make it a fair comparison, get groomed into aiding and abetting child trafficking by being said child, you should lose your citizenship and criminally charged. It is only a fair comparison that way of course.

 

[theprestige]

If a child sex trafficking victim willingly travelled to another country and aided and abetted the group in committing murder, I'm pretty confident they would be held accountable for their actions in a court of law.

If they're a child sex trafficking victim, it raises serious questions about whether they were willingly doing anything, or should be held accountable for their part in anything their traffickers involved them in.

You seem to be begging the question that she's guilty. I'd like to see that question examined by the courts in a fair trial, before reaching my conclusions.

And to me, a fair trial includes recognizing her citizenship and allowing her to be present at her trial. If and only if the court finds that she is culpable, should the question of consequences (including revoking her citizenship), be considered.

Do you disagree with any of that?

 

[dudalb]

I wonder if she was a member of a right wing terrorist group some people here would be quite as forgiving....
Yes, I think there a lot of ideological bias at play here.

 

[dudalb]

She is still unapologetic. All her comments are "woe is me". I have zero sympathy for her.

Not sure she should be prosecuted since I fell you should need to prove a definent criminal act for a criminal conviction,but I have zero sympathy for her, and don't buy the "poor innocent victim of propaganda" routine. She was old enough to have known better.

 

[RolandRat]

Just trying to make it a fair comparison, get groomed into aiding and abetting child trafficking by being said child, you should lose your citizenship and criminally charged. It is only a fair comparison that way of course.

If you read up on a child sex trafficking ring, read about their actions, morals and aims and then willingly joined them to help them traffic others, I doubt you'd get much sympathy if you complained the local childrens hostel didn't want to take you in.

If they're a child sex trafficking victim, it raises serious questions about whether they were willingly doing anything, or should be held accountable for their part in anything their traffickers involved them in.

You seem to be begging the question that she's guilty. I'd like to see that question examined by the courts in a fair trial, before reaching my conclusions.

And to me, a fair trial includes recognizing her citizenship and allowing her to be present at her trial. If and only if the court finds that she is culpable, should the question of consequences (including revoking her citizenship), be considered.

Do you disagree with any of that?

She is guilty of terrorism, she has admitted it. She has shown no remorse for her actions. In this day and age you don't need to be physically present. We have held many trials were the defendant has appeared by video link. Why do you feel that it is so important she is physically in the court room?

edit - I do agree with you regarding the court. I personally hold our justice system in high regard. Yes, we have had some stupid judges but overall, I believe they make the correct decision. Our judicial system is a check on our Government and they are not afraid to hold the Government to account when they believe the politicians have got it wrong. I may not agree with their decisions sometimes, but I believe they try to apply the rule of law fairly.

 

[RolandRat]

Not sure she should be prosecuted since I fell you should need to prove a definent criminal act for a criminal conviction,but I have zero sympathy for her, and don't buy the "poor innocent victim of propaganda" routine. She was old enough to have known better.

She joined a known terrorist group and aided and abetted them in murder.

 

[Wolrab]

She joined a known terrorist group and aided and abetted them in murder.

Well, other than that, she's a real sweetheart.