The Rise of Hitler and The Age of Trump: A Comparison

MrFliop said:
No! If Trump’s presidency were anything like the “rise of Nazism”, then the constitution, democracy etc. all that would’ve been subverted during the first weeks of Trump’s term in early 2017, and the US would’ve been a one party dictatorship. So, no I don’t see any similarities at all.
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Why do you think it had to be done during the first weeks of his presidency? We saw the Constitution and our democracy subverted or attempted to be subverted during his administration in many ways. For example:

1. In April 2020, Trump threatened to "formally adjourn Congress—that is, end Congress’s current session and force it into a recess—for the express purpose of installing his own people in federal jobs (possibly even judgeships) without having to follow the normal process of Senate confirmation. Doing so would subvert America’s constitutional design." https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/trump-adjournment-constitution/610171/

2. Our democracy has been subverted with Trump's refusal to recognize the legitimacy of congressional oversight which all previous presidents have recognized when he ignored all Congressional subpoenas.

3. "Days after his inauguration, Trump signed an executive order that placed immigration-related conditions on federal funding to cities. The action penalized “sanctuary cities” by threatening to withhold grants from jurisdictions that the Justice Department deemed insufficiently cooperative in helping federal authorities detain undocumented immigrants. Many jurisdictions won rulings declaring the conditions were likely to be illegal because they were not authorized by law. Some ruled unconstitutional the law invoked in support of the conditions."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/trump-overruled/

4. But of course, the most obvious subversion of our democracy and our Constitution is The Big Lie. I don't think I need to explain how.

We also saw Trump turn the DOJ and the Attorney General into his own private law enforcement agency and lawyer rather than the impartial and independent agency it is supposed to be.

Just because Trump and the right wing weren't successful in turning the US into an authoritarian dictatorship during Trump's administration does not mean the far right Republicans do not embrace authoritarianism and are not using the same tactics as the Nazis used. Because the evidence is that they do and are.
 
BobTheCoward said:
It seems like fascism is adherence to a fascist ideology rather than a set of policies. The fascist trump supporters have no problem labeling themselves fascist.
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Why would you think that? The leading Trumpers would never call themselves or each other or their voters "fascist."
 
MrFliop said:
Yes, I am aware of how those leaders “maintained” power. But, the rise of fascistic dictatorships, or any dictatorship for that matter, from democracies usually involves the restructuring and consolidation of power over time while still maintaining a facade of democracy. That’s not what Trump has done while he was in office. If his ultimate goal was to gain more power, why didn’t he do anything to change the foundations of government in his 4 years? Why was he being so patient?
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MrFliop said:
Except they aren’t similar AT ALL! He hasn’t done anything to FOUNDATIONALLY change the Federal Government that would expand HIS power, the office of the Presidency. That’s the whole point of Fascist Dictatorships! unlimited power to the HEAD of state!
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Did you read the actual article? It's not TRUMP himself so much that is the danger; he was too incompetent. The danger is the foundation that is being set by how he was allowed to act, how he was/is being supported by GOP leadership, and being followed by more competent men like Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz.

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't think the real comparison is between the two men, but the movements that supported them. Both are anti-democratic, authoritarian and racist. Trump pretty clearly saw himself as an entertainer, and by multiple accounts he expected his campaign to help boost his brand and his TV properties, not to make him President. He shaped his message to appeal to the people who already felt that way, and in turn they have used him to seize and expand their power.
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Stacyhs said:
Exactly. I did not title this thread "Hitler and Trump: A Comparison" for a reason. It's not about the two men. It's about how they came to power.
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I think a lot of people here have just plain lost faith in Democracy , period.
Intersting what they would put in it's place. Maybe something HG Wells fantasy of a world ran by a elite group of scientest, which would produce utopia.
 
Stacyhs said:
Why do you think it had to be done during the first weeks of his presidency? We saw the Constitution and our democracy subverted or attempted to be subverted during his administration in many ways. For example:

1. In April 2020, Trump threatened to "formally adjourn Congress—that is, end Congress’s current session and force it into a recess—for the express purpose of installing his own people in federal jobs (possibly even judgeships) without having to follow the normal process of Senate confirmation. Doing so would subvert America’s constitutional design." https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/trump-adjournment-constitution/610171/

2. Our democracy has been subverted with Trump's refusal to recognize the legitimacy of congressional oversight which all previous presidents have recognized when he ignored all Congressional subpoenas.

3. "Days after his inauguration, Trump signed an executive order that placed immigration-related conditions on federal funding to cities. The action penalized “sanctuary cities” by threatening to withhold grants from jurisdictions that the Justice Department deemed insufficiently cooperative in helping federal authorities detain undocumented immigrants. Many jurisdictions won rulings declaring the conditions were likely to be illegal because they were not authorized by law. Some ruled unconstitutional the law invoked in support of the conditions."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/trump-overruled/

4. But of course, the most obvious subversion of our democracy and our Constitution is The Big Lie. I don't think I need to explain how.

We also saw Trump turn the DOJ and the Attorney General into his own private law enforcement agency and lawyer rather than the impartial and independent agency it is supposed to be.

Just because Trump and the right wing weren't successful in turning the US into an authoritarian dictatorship during Trump's administration does not mean the far right Republicans do not embrace authoritarianism and are not using the same tactics as the Nazis used. Because the evidence is that they do and are.
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So Presidents have never clashed with congress before? Has happened many times in US history. Also, don’t we hear every week in the news about some conflicts governors have with their state legislatures? Never heard them be accused of being part of some fascist conspiracy.
Stacyhs said:
Did you read the actual article? It's not TRUMP himself so much that is the danger; he was too incompetent. The danger is the foundation that is being set by how he was allowed to act, how he was/is being supported by GOP leadership, and being followed by more competent men like Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz.
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Ok. I see what ya’ll trying to say now. It’s not Trump himself, it’s his followers and people he inspires that are the threat. :rolleyes:
 
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MrFliop said:
Yes, I am aware of how those leaders “maintained” power. But, the rise of fascistic dictatorships, or any dictatorship for that matter, from democracies usually involves the restructuring and consolidation of power over time while still maintaining a facade of democracy.
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Check Turkey and Erdogan. That is EXACTLY what he did


MrFliop said:
That’s not what Trump has done while he was in office. If his ultimate goal was to gain more power, why didn’t he do anything to change the foundations of government in his 4 years? Why was he being so patient?
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Oh, he tried. His problem is that he didn't come in with a plan to do that... hell, he didn't even expect to win the presidency - and four years wasn't enough time to to dismantle the guard rails, it was only just enough time to surround himself with enough corrupt people to do his bidding.

Try to remember what things were like at the beginning of his Presidency in 2016, and compare that with what they were like in 2020. He began by saying outrageous things, and progressed to doing outrageous things over those four years. In no particular order

- Putting polluter lobbyists in charge of Environmental agencies
- Separating children from families at the Mexican border
- Declaring the “court system” a threat to national security.
- Encouraging US intelligence chiefs to undermine the FBI’s Russia probe.
- Blackmailing a foreign leader to create dirt on political opponents
- Suggesting that publicly criticizing his military decisions is tantamount to aiding “the enemy.”
- Continuing to run nis businesses while President
- Using the office of the presidency for personal financial gain
- Using the DoJ as a political attack dog against political enemies
- Repealing environmental laws
- Firing the director of the FBI for failing to pledge personal loyalty to him.
- Undermining international cooperation on climate change
- Sharing classified Israeli intelligence with Israel’s geopolitical enemies.
- Trying to undermine NATO as a favour for his best buddy Putin
- Abandoning an alliance with a long-time Middle East ally over Twitter.
- Praising Philippine president Rodrigo Duterte for his policy of extrajudicial killings of criminals.
- Allowing the Justice Department to prosecute a woman for laughing at Jeff Sessions.
- Knowingly hiring a paid agent of the Turkish government as his national security adviser.
- Baselessly accusing his predecessor of illegally wiretapping his phones.
- Violating court orders against his travel ban.
- Inciting an insurrection against the government to stop the counting of votes in an election that would end his presidency

And that is just a sample of some of the thing he did in just four years... try to imagine what would have happened if he had been re-elected; what he would do in the next four years....

a. with all the guard rails already down
b. with all the corrupt lackeys already in place
c. after having learned what he could get away with.

Its a terrifying thought! :eek:
 
Stacyhs said:
Did you read the actual article? It's not TRUMP himself so much that is the danger; he was too incompetent. The danger is the foundation that is being set by how he was allowed to act, how he was/is being supported by GOP leadership, and being followed by more competent men like Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz.
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God help America if Hawley ever rises to power and gets elected President.
 
smartcooky said:
God help America if Hawley ever rises to power and gets elected President.
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Hawley is Trump 2.0.
It says something the John Danforth, the long time retired GOP Senator from MIssouri, says that supproting Hawley was the worst mistake he ever made.
Wierd thing is Hawlwy was a moderate until he decided to run for the senate.
 
smartcooky said:
Check Turkey and Erdogan. That is EXACTLY what he did




Oh, he tried. His problem is that he didn't come in with a plan to do that... hell, he didn't even expect to win the presidency - and four years wasn't enough time to to dismantle the guard rails, it was only just enough time to surround himself with enough corrupt people to do his bidding.

Try to remember what things were like at the beginning of his Presidency in 2016, and compare that with what they were like in 2020. He began by saying outrageous things, and progressed to doing outrageous things over those four years. In no particular order

- Putting polluter lobbyists in charge of Environmental agencies
- Separating children from families at the Mexican border
- Declaring the “court system” a threat to national security.
- Encouraging US intelligence chiefs to undermine the FBI’s Russia probe.
- Blackmailing a foreign leader to create dirt on political opponents
- Suggesting that publicly criticizing his military decisions is tantamount to aiding “the enemy.”
- Continuing to run nis businesses while President
- Using the office of the presidency for personal financial gain
- Using the DoJ as a political attack dog against political enemies
- Repealing environmental laws
- Firing the director of the FBI for failing to pledge personal loyalty to him.
- Undermining international cooperation on climate change
- Sharing classified Israeli intelligence with Israel’s geopolitical enemies.
- Trying to undermine NATO as a favour for his best buddy Putin
- Abandoning an alliance with a long-time Middle East ally over Twitter.
- Praising Philippine president Rodrigo Duterte for his policy of extrajudicial killings of criminals.
- Allowing the Justice Department to prosecute a woman for laughing at Jeff Sessions.
- Knowingly hiring a paid agent of the Turkish government as his national security adviser.
- Baselessly accusing his predecessor of illegally wiretapping his phones.
- Violating court orders against his travel ban.
- Inciting an insurrection against the government to stop the counting of votes in an election that would end his presidency

And that is just a sample of some of the thing he did in just four years... try to imagine what would have happened if he had been re-elected; what he would do in the next four years....

a. with all the guard rails already down
b. with all the corrupt lackeys already in place
c. after having learned what he could get away with.

Its a terrifying thought! :eek:
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Trump in power again would end in massive political violence in the US. I firmly beleive that.
 
MrFliop said:
Except they aren’t similar AT ALL!
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That is not what you said in the post I quoted. You said that if Trump's presidency was "anything like" Nazi Germany the Constitution would have been torn down, etc. and then used that to say they weren't similar. So I responded to that. Don't move the goalposts now.

A list of similarities was provided. How about you address those?
 
dudalb said:
Please.The last thing we need is for the Dems to become a Bizarro version of the GOP with a "We don't need no stinking moderates or centrist" hard liners controlling the party.
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No but they'd need to stop trying to find compromises with the other side. All it does is waste time, water down their own policies and often just ends up dead.

What they really need to focus on, aside from just getting their legislations through via their majority, is to solve the voter suppression problems.
 
MrFliop said:
So Presidents have never clashed with congress before? Has happened many times in US history. Also, don’t we hear every week in the news about some conflicts governors have with their state legislatures? Never heard them be accused of being part of some fascist conspiracy.
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Let me get this straight: You're calling the things I listed mere "clashing with Congress"? Trump ignored all the Congressional subpoenas even though the Supreme Court ruled against Nixon when he tried to claim that he was exempt from Congressional subpoenas in U.S. vs Nixon:

Nixon's lawyer challenged the constitutionality of the subpoena, citing the executive privileges laid out in Article II of the US constitution. The matter went all the way up to the US Supreme Court, and resulted in a landmark case, US v. Nixon.

In a 8-0 decision, the court, led by Chief Justice Warren Burger, ruled against Nixon
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You're claiming Trump threatening to adjourn Congress in order to install his own henchman without Senate confirmation is a mere "clashing with Congress"?

I see you totally skip over THE BIG LIE.


Ok. I see what ya’ll trying to say now. It’s not Trump himself, it’s his followers and people he inspires that are the threat. :rolleyes:
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I suggest you look again because you must be looking somewhere completely different.
 
Bob001 said:
Why would you think that? The leading Trumpers would never call themselves or each other or their voters "fascist."
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The leading Trumpers probably are not fascist. Leading Trumpers have probably not thought enough to adhere to an all encompassing philosophy such as fascism.

The fascist ones are fascist and pretty open about it. And I bet they are very disappointed.

I know the philosophical feeling. I'm truly for open boarders, and the people most often accused of being open boarders. They are not.
 
Stacyhs said:
You're claiming Trump threatening to adjourn Congress in order to install his own henchman without Senate confirmation is a mere "clashing with Congress"?
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I agree that what Trump did last April was a dumb move. But, the president does have the authority to adjourn Congress under certain circumstances.

may, on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in case of disagreement between them, with respect to the time of adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he shall think proper.https://www.justice.gov/file/20711/download
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Of course it probably wouldn’t apply to Trump’s situation last year but Trump probably not being a constitution expert, heard from someone or somewhere that he had the ability to recess and Congress and tried(unsuccessfully) to do it himself. Does this show Trump’s an idiot? Maybe? Does it show intent of misconduct? Probably. Does it show creeping fascism? Nah. Just more liberal hysteria.
 
MrFliop said:
I agree that what Trump did last April was a dumb move. But, the president does have the authority to adjourn Congress under certain circumstances.
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So? Those circumstances did not exist. As Belz said: Eyes on the ball.

Of course it probably wouldn’t apply to Trump’s situation last year but Trump probably not being a constitution expert, heard from someone or somewhere that he had the ability to recess and Congress and tried(unsuccessfully) to do it himself. Does this show Trump’s an idiot? Maybe? Does it show intent of misconduct? Probably. Does it show creeping fascism? Nah. Just more liberal hysteria.
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Wow. So now the excuse is down to "Donny just didn't know any better. He didn't know that he couldn't cancel Congress and just appoint his own people and go around getting them approved by the Senate like he'd had to do for the last 3 years. That's why he threatened to do that when he wasn't getting his way.

Again, you ignore the other things I mentioned, most especially THE BIG LIE. Or do you not consider claiming our election was stolen, that our voting system is unsafe, that Biden is an illegitimate president is not subverting our democracy? When 53% of Republicans/50 million Americans believe Trump is "the true president" because they have lost faith in the the very democratic election system upon which our government is built that is clearly a threat to our democracy. Or am I just being too dramatic and hysterical?

I have to wonder what it would take to get some people "dramatic and hysterical"? Never mind. I know: lying about having oral sex with an intern, a laptop left in a repair shop with a sticker on it, BENGHAZI, and a devil-worshipping, baby eating, sex trafficking ring in the basement of a pizza shop in New Jersey.
 
Stacyhs said:
Again, you ignore the other things I mentioned, most especially THE BIG LIE. Or do you not consider claiming our election was stolen, that our voting system is unsafe, that Biden is an illegitimate president is not subverting our democracy?
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The following is normally said more flippantly than I mean to use it: the US is not a democracy. It truly has too many veto points to nullify election results.
 
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