How do pagans celebrate Christmas?

Ladewig said:
Also, outside of Jesus cursing the fig tree (which is pretty strange to begin with) when would it ever be God's will to wither a fig tree or to move a mountain into the sea. I ask because Jesus gives those two examples of asking for something and then receiving it. You say that you will receive it only if it is in God's plan, so when will it ever be God's plan to wither a tree or send a mountain to the bottom of the ocean? If the answer is never, then why did He give those specific examples?
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This is an interesting choice you brought up. I could look at this as a spirtual lesson on how God said He would cut down any tree that didn't produce fruit. Fruit scriptually can imply adding to the body of believers.
And as far as telling a mountain to throw itself into the sea...well I think this is just a reminder of how we can ask in faith and even if it seems impossible...God just might do it?
 
kurious_kathy said:
It's because of God's mercy that Jesus came. He's the only one that never sinned. God is Holy...we are not. Only those of us who receive what Jesus did on the cross can be reconciled to God. It's God reconciling us back to himself that matters.
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Nice way to avoid answering my question. Try reading what I asked and actually answer the question this time. I'll even be nice and post the question for you again. Ready? Here goes. . .

Genesius said:
Let's try to look at this rationally: Supposedly we are all God's children, yes? And God has infinite love for his children, yes? But God, like all loving parents, needs to punish his children when they do wrong, yes? Do I have it right so far?

Well, I am also a parent, with a 17-year-old daughter. And I love my daughter, although being a flawed human being I'm sure you would say that my love for my daughter is less than God's love for his children. And from time to time my daughter does wrong and I'm forced to punish her.

There is one major difference here: No matter what my daughter does, no matter if she became a drug-addicted crack whore blowing 14-year-old boys to raise drug money, nothing she could do could ever convince me that she deserved to be tortured for eternity for her crimes. Eventually, my flawed human love and compassion would lead me to say "You've learned your lesson." So how, if God's love and compassion for his children is so much greater than my own, can he bear to punish his children in such a horrible way?

Even if I were given the opportunity to judge and sentence the most vile people in history, Hitler, Attila the Hun, Charles Manson, you name it, I could never find it in my heart to pronounce a sentence of eternal punishment. A few million years standing up to your neck in a lake of excrement, sure. But no one in human history has ever done anything bad enough to merit eternal punishment. So why is it that my flawed human compassion and forgiveness seems to be so much greater than God's?

Do you see now why I reject Christianity as, at its core, a base and depraved religion? I find nothing in your God to love or respect. He is a monster, gleefully torturing people whose punishment far exceeds their crimes.

Christian Dude, can you or Kathy provide any refutation of this, or will your reply simply consist of spewing more Bible quotes?
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kurious_kathy said:
This is an interesting choice you brought up. I could look at this as a spirtual lesson on how God said He would cut down any tree that didn't produce fruit. Fruit scriptually can imply adding to the body of believers.
And as far as telling a mountain to throw itself into the sea...well I think this is just a reminder of how we can ask in faith and even if it seems impossible...God just might do it?
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Er, no. I'd explain why your answer is wrong, but seeing as you have repeatedly demonstrated that you are not interested in learning of any errors, mistakes, or logical fallacies in your posts, I won't waste my breath.

Instead, I'll wait for CD's response.

One last thought KK, have you ever considered directing your desire to convert people to more useful ends? Perhaps bringing the word to prison inmates, or to the elderly residents of facilitated care community, or the patients at a hospice. People here have directly stated that you are pushing JREF members further away from the church with your style. Time is a precious gift from Our Maker. Please don't waste yours here when you could be doing God's work someplace else. Jesus gave very clear instructions on the matter: "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces" (Matt 7:6). Jesus will not be happy to learn that you forsook the chance to save others by wasting your time here. Matthew 25:41-45 shows that you may end up being a goat if you squander your time here instead of helping people.
 
I think that you misinterpret Matt 7:6 here. This is clearly Jesus being used to voice the notion to only bring the news to Jews and not Gentiles - for who else would have been intended? This is classic of the early church, which had large struggles with this issue of whether or not only Jews were to be considered for the new religion (see disagreements between Paul and 'the 12').

So, KK has every right (well, some anyway) to go about proselytizing. She just has to get a clue or two:

1. This is a forum dedicated to thought, reason, and evidence.

2. Many of us have already been there/done that/grown up. After spending half of my life as a dedicated Christian, my current stance concerning religion cannot be swayed by her proselytizing. And I'm certain that this goes for others from similar backgrounds.
 
kuroyume0161 said:
So, KK has every right (well, some anyway) to go about proselytizing.
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Before Kathy & Dude come back here pounding their pulpit, perhaps they should consider Matthew 6:5-6. . .

6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
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But that discusses praying and how you should show your 'piety', not how to go about 'recruiting'. I'm not on my Mac so I don't have the direct reference, but doesn't Jesus at least several times command his Apostles to proselytize (make fishers of men and go spread the good news, etc.)?
 
I think "praying in the corners of the streets" is a good general definition for proselytizing. And if Jeebus told his followers to go out on the streetcorners and preach, well that's just one more of those contradictions that KK and her ilk tell us really aren't in the Bible.
 
kurious_kathy said:
This is an interesting choice you brought up. I could look at this as a spirtual lesson on how God said He would cut down any tree that didn't produce fruit. Fruit scriptually can imply adding to the body of believers.
And as far as telling a mountain to throw itself into the sea...well I think this is just a reminder of how we can ask in faith and even if it seems impossible...God just might do it?
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Basic idea here is:

o ask for something
o if He feels like it, He'll give it
o Praise Him when the something happens, but
o Don't ever blaim Him when that something doesn't happen

This, of course, raises the question: if this God cat is really in charge of everything, then why praise Him if He cures a disease that only He could have caused? Why not just curse God when you get the disease. I'll bet you get the same positive results percentage.

I need woo logic lessons to be this puerile in my thinking.
 
Ladewig said:
Clearly? Why do you say it is clearly that? Do KK and CD agree with this clear interpretation?
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Because this is clearly (and I can definitely back that up) a notion particular to Jews - that dogs and swine are unclean. Jesus certainly wasn't speaking directly about dogs and swine, right? This was about human analogs. Although I've seen other interpretations, the one that fits is 'unclean people' - to Jews, non-Jews were considered unclean. Non-Jews are referred to as Gentiles.

QED

Now, I see vast wastelands of apologetics on this. And, funny actually, they contradict each other in interpretation and differ on many esoteric areas. One says the dogs are wild, mangy street dogs whereas another says that they aren't. Maybe taking this literally as such an indictment is not being 'spiritual' enough, but Jesus makes other such proclamations about avoiding Gentiles elsewhere in the Gospels. And it is to be noted that he does not preach to a single Gentile.

Paul and the Wall

Jerusalem Trampled

Gospel of Matthew

Acceptance of Gentiles into Christianity was almost solely the enterprise of Paul.
 
Huntster said:
Wow.

Where do you come up with this kind of garbage?
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This is the best apologetics - from a non-biased-against resource:

Bible.org

Does it really say that Jesus never preached to Gentiles? Why, yes the F!k it does!

Garbage from an organization promoting the Bible!
 
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fowlsound said:
Hunster, weren't you the one throwing an adhom out about ignorance of religion?
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He usually is.

That 'garbage', Hunster, is the truth. Jesus was a Jew. He was born a Jew, he died a Jew, and he preached to the Jews. He didn't give a fig (pardon the pun, JC) about the non-Jews. And why should he? God didn't give a fig about the non-Jews, either. The OT God was the God of the Jews. Not of all those other people; they had their own gods. And only the Jews were blessed, only the Jews would continue on Earth, etc. etc.

When you get right down to it, the Christians are condemned (as non-Jews) pretty much until Paul takes a hand.

From the point that God took the Jews under His wing, the rest of mankind was essentially condemned. For folks now to think that the God of Isaac and Abraham gives a fig for their non-Israeli ways is laughable at best!

Ah... but that challenges faith. And we all know that Hunster places faith in higher regard than fact.
 
kuroyume0161 said:
This is the best apologetics - from a non-biased-against resource:

Bible.org

Does it really say that Jesus never preached to Gentiles? Why, yes the F!k it does!

Garbage from an organization promoting the Bible!
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Yup; Garbage from an organization promoting the Bible.

I suppose you believe everything you read?

Actually, you have often illustrated that you do like garbage, but primarily when it is derogatory toward religion.
 
zaayrdragon said:
He usually is.

That 'garbage', Hunster, is the truth. Jesus was a Jew. He was born a Jew, he died a Jew, and he preached to the Jews. He didn't give a fig (pardon the pun, JC) about the non-Jews....
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...When he entered Capernaum, a centurion approached him and appealed to him, saying, "Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, suffering dreadfully." He said to him, "I will come and cure him." The centurion said in reply, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed. For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come here,' and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it." When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Amen, I say to you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith. I say to you, many will come from the east and the west, and will recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the banquet in the kingdom of heaven, but the children of the kingdom will be driven out into the outer darkness, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth." And Jesus said to the centurion, "You may go; as you have believed, let it be done for you." And at that very hour (his) servant was healed....
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You know not whereof you write.

...And we all know that Hunster places faith in higher regard than fact....
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I damned sure place faith in higher regard than your facts.
 
Huntster said:
Yup; Garbage from an organization promoting the Bible.

I suppose you believe everything you read?

Actually, you have often illustrated that you do like garbage, but primarily when it is derogatory toward religion.
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No, I seek to find the reality instead of the liberal interpretation when possible. That was just one resource (well, two including the other). I skipped a couple others as they were possibly too biased for you. But the rest from 'biblical teaching' type sites - nah, they are just pushing the favorable interpretation as always. I don't need to hear the stock explanatory apologetics.

Jesus never preached to the Gentiles and he warns his Apostles to do the same, on several occassions (e.g.: Matthew 15:22-28). He was 'made' to preach to them after resurrection. Again, Jesus was made to do many things - which explains the inconsistencies and oddities of the NT. Paul was the instigator for allowing Gentiles into Christianity (against Peter and the other 12). There was a great debate between them concerning purity codes, circumcision, and who could find salvation through this convenant extension. Why would the 12 Apostles (as they were proclaimed) have such a problem with Gentiles after coming directly from the teacher himself if he had truly embraced such an idea?

Sorry, the Gospel According to John is such an esoteric late edition and Paul is obvious in the already expanding desire to include Gentiles.

Note that Jesus, again on several occassions, proclaims that he has not come to destroy or replace the law, but to fulfill it and uphold it. This would be Judaic law, not Roman or otherwise Gentile.

In your case, Garbage in, Garbage out...
 
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A Note to Huntster:

Isn't it amazing that Jesus could do so many contradictory things? He praises family and then says that one must hate them. He praises Jews, then he denigrates them. He denigrates Gentiles, but helps one or two on occassion. He hates his Apostles and he loves them. He brings a sword and a dove. He is black and he is white.

This is what happens when a story is written by at least several authors supporting each of their group's views at various times - a muddled mess that requires acrobatics beyond the greatest circuses on Earth to reconcile.

I can have Jesus preaching only to Gentiles if I extract the correct sources (and there are a couple). Good luck in your faith under the big top.
 
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