Being a racist while having a soft skull

[bluesjnr]

It's gray and fuzzy.

I believe that you do not view yourself as condoning the action, and I know you well enough to think that this is very likely true. On the other hand, however, you seem to be assuming that other posters in this thread are also expressing the same sentiment as you, and I disagree with that. I think that other posters in this thread do view violence as an appropriate action, and that they condone the action.

I'm perfectly happy to exclude you from that list... but I'm not at all convinced that the same generosity should be extended to everyone. In fact, I have a very difficult time understanding how you conclude that other posters are NOT lauding the violence employed against words.

I can explain. When you quote people clearly supporting the actions of the manager he accuses you of "fabricat(ing)" the quotes. On top of this he then insists that people can "enjoy the outcome without condoning the action"; said action being an old, alleged, racist punched to death.

It's devastatingly effective.

 

[bluesjnr]

Oh for Christ's sake, get off your high horse for a moment and READ what I wrote!

Did I accuse cullennz of being a racist? No. I did not - if you think I did, show me where?

Did I imply that cullennz of was a racist? No. I did not - if you think I did, show me where?

What's that? Somebody accusing you of calling someone a racist!

How on earth, looking at the body of your work in these these threads, could they have come to such a conclusion?

 

[Belz...]

That'll do it.

A big part of why I was an avowed anti-racist for the first 2/3rds of my life or so, was that I lived in very white areas during that time.

I've worked around people of all ethnic backgrounds for the last ten years or so and for some reason it hasn't made me a racist. Quite the opposite, actually.

 

[Belz...]

a) We only have the thugs wprd the old bloke did use any racist terms.

Interesting that even after you were told and explained why that word is a telltale sign of racism, you continue to use it.

Sure. Consequences like a 70-something old male getting killed by a punch from a 20-something young male. Consequences.

I don't think the "consequences" are appropriate, acceptable, or justified.

It doesn't matter that they are not. They are still expected consequences.

Say I go to a biker's bar and start insulting someone's mom or girlfriend or whatever... sure, they can't legally hurt me, but wouldn't you expect me to come back from there... scathed in some way?

 

[Belz...]

Belz, are you invested in this argument?

Nobody has said explicitly that phrase, but it has been pretty obviously implied. In a way that's hard to miss.

No. Joe has explained it quite clearly: it doesn't matter that one's not a racist, if one continually uses arguments that cover or apologises for racists; it's functionally the same.

I'd suggest trying for alternate phrasing. That particular phrase "violent thug" is one that is FREQUENTLY used in a derogatory fashion to imply that black people deserve the disproportionate treatment they receive at the hands of the police, and to dismiss and brush aside the deaths and injuries that black people incur in altercation as being justified.

It's an EXTREMELY loaded phrase in the US.

There, see what I mean? It doesn't matter, for instance, if cullennz is a racist or not. He probably isn't. But his insistence on using this particular phrase even after being informed of its meaning is funtionally identical to it being used by a racist. He helps their cause whether or not he wants to.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I think everyone is also missing an important angle here, that a beligerrent customer got checked hard by a service worker. It's a rare sight.

Anyone who has ever worked a service job knows how shockingly common it is for customers to be petty tyrants. Apparently the customer-service worker exchange is just the excuse people need to treat other people with appalling levels of contempt and abuse. There was just another thread where some racist woman decided throwing things at a cashier was an acceptable response to food she didn't like.

It's pretty rare, in my limited experience in the customer service trenches, to have management willing to put a stop to it. It's usually much easier to just let the customers have their tirade at the expense of some poor schmuck at the counter than to intervene or require any standards of conduct.

This manager seems to be an exception. A customer came in all hopped up to berate some donut store employees and got checked. If I worked for that guy he would have my eternal gratitude and loyalty.

I'm guessing the shine of "essential workers" is coming off and people are sliding back into their habits of treating service workers like absolute dog ****. But in this case, there was a correction.

 

[cullennz]

I think everyone is also missing an important angle here, that a beligerrent customer got checked hard by a service worker. It's a rare sight.

Anyone who has ever worked a service job knows how shockingly common it is for customers to be petty tyrants. Apparently the customer-service worker exchange is just the excuse people need to treat other people with appalling levels of contempt and abuse. There was just another thread where some racist woman decided throwing things at a cashier was an acceptable response to food she didn't like.

It's pretty rare, in my limited experience in the customer service trenches, to have management willing to put a stop to it. It's usually much easier to just let the customers have their tirade at the expense of some poor schmuck at the counter than to intervene or require any standards of conduct.

This manager seems to be an exception. A customer came in all hopped up to berate some donut store employees and got checked. If I worked for that guy he would have my eternal gratitude and loyalty.

I'm guessing the shine of "essential workers" is coming off and people are sliding back into their habits of treating service workers like absolute dog ****. But in this case, there was a correction.

That's great if you are into getting stressed out over an ******** customer, but it doesn't change the fact the dude will probably spend most of his good years in jail.

But hey big ups to him.

I have worked in service jobs. Mostly pubs earlier in life, spitting in your face some ugly things yelled. You tended to just ignore stuff like that and make them leave, and bar them when they come back in calm and less off their head.

Obviously there were a few times where it got more involved at the time.

 

[smartcooky]

I've worked around people of all ethnic backgrounds for the last ten years or so and for some reason it hasn't made me a racist. Quite the opposite, actually.

I've lived near and worked around and served with people from a range of ethnic backgrounds for the last 40+ years, and for some reason, this hasn't made me a racist either.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Seriously people "I'm not apologizing for racists, I'm just by pure magical coincidence and chance always on their side argumentatively in every single discussion because the universe just aligns everything I don't understand and every coincidence to make it so I'm functionally identical to a racist apologist" is pathetic.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I don't like to assume the worst in people in general, but are you playing dumb here? While it's true that, in an ideal world, words would never provoke a violent physical reaction. But that's not really reflective of reality. Surely that concept can't be incomprehensible to you?

I'll throw in a preemptive obligatory I'm not endorsing violence here just in case also.

Hey we only know that it was racial slur, maybe he was dipping into the more esoteric and calling him a porch monkey, or spear chucker? There are lots of racial epithets to choose from it does not have to be the N word. Though of course it totally was the N word.

 

[plague311]

This appears to be a healthy conversation.

I should note that given the back and forth about the racist vs. non-racist going on here, would it be safe to say the line gets blurred? Maybe Pujols asked him to repeat himself because he wasn't sure if he heard him right, or got the infliction of his words correctly, or thought "there's no way this guy that's been here so many times would say this stuff to me"? Maybe it's the fact that Pujols thought highly of the man that the racist words said to him caused him so much anger.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I should note that given the back and forth about the racist vs. non-racist going on here, would it be safe to say the line gets blurred?

What ever do you mean? There are no racist here, just people who are on their side in literally every discussion and we're not allowed to notice it.

 

[Mumbles]

This appears to be a healthy conversation.

I should note that given the back and forth about the racist vs. non-racist going on here, would it be safe to say the line gets blurred? Maybe Pujols asked him to repeat himself because he wasn't sure if he heard him right, or got the infliction of his words correctly, or thought "there's no way this guy that's been here so many times would say this stuff to me"? Maybe it's the fact that Pujols thought highly of the man that the racist words said to him caused him so much anger.

All possible. But truthfully, I'm guessing he just wanted to hit the guy because the guy called him the N word. And in truth, he probably could have called the cops on the old man for trespassing. But for whatever reason, they both decided to fight, and now the old guy is dead, and Pujols will likely end up in prison for manslaughter.

 

[ponderingturtle]

All possible. But truthfully, I'm guessing he just wanted to hit the guy because the guy called him the N word. And in truth, he probably could have called the cops on the old man for trespassing. But for whatever reason, they both decided to fight, and now the old guy is dead, and Pujols will likely end up in prison for manslaughter.

Does it ever end well when a black service industry person calls the police on a white customer? I am reminded where the police attacked the black liqueur store owner and let the armed robber go free.

 

[Ron Obvious]

Because otherwise your argument here is a fallacy. "People back then accused others of X and were wrong, so people now accusing others of Y must be wrong" is a pretty stupid point.

It would be if that were my point. I meant to give a warning against moral certitude, black and white morality, the inability to see context and nuance or extending the principle of charity, and against righteous anger and zeal.

These forums are becoming a cesspit with a small number of posters shouting everybody down who doesn't conform to their limited worldview.

 

[Thermal]

This appears to be a healthy conversation.

Hopefully you mean in the proposed conversation cuz the existing one is highly toxic.

I should note that given the back and forth about the racist vs. non-racist going on here, would it be safe to say the line gets blurred? Maybe Pujols asked him to repeat himself because he wasn't sure if he heard him right, or got the infliction of his words correctly, or thought "there's no way this guy that's been here so many times would say this stuff to me"? Maybe it's the fact that Pujols thought highly of the man that the racist words said to him caused him so much anger.

Entirely possible. Makes the immediate battery a little tougher to justify, tho. Wouldn't someone normally yell at someone they were friendly with first, rather than go straight to violence?

 

[Mumbles]

Does it ever end well when a black service industry person calls the police on a white customer? I am reminded where the police attacked the black liqueur store owner and let the armed robber go free.

There is that possibility, sure, but most likely they'd have just escorted the old man out.

 

[plague311]

Entirely possible. Makes the immediate battery a little tougher to justify, tho. Wouldn't someone normally yell at someone they were friendly with first, rather than go straight to violence?

In my world? No, not at all. Maybe in yours, but as I just posted our worlds are obviously very different.

If someone walked up to me I didn't know and said, "Hey you fat piece of ****" I'd probably ignore them thinking they were crazy.

If someone like an uncle, or a neighbor I've known for years, or someone I was familiar with came up and screamed that in my face I'd lay them out flat. I don't care what random people say, I do put a very miniscule amount of stock in what people I know say.

 

[Belz...]

It would be if that were my point. I meant to give a warning against moral certitude, black and white morality, the inability to see context and nuance or extending the principle of charity, and against righteous anger and zeal.

Which has **** all to do with any of the discussions here. No one is "morally certain" that poster X is a racist or that the puncher was justified, and the very fact that in this instance, but not others, some posters are ready to excuse the aggressor is an example of nuance. Otherwise they'd make no exception. But of course you ignored that.

These forums are becoming a cesspit with a small number of posters shouting everybody down who doesn't conform to their limited worldview.

Maybe they're shouting down posters who HAVE a limited worldview and refuse to see other perspectives, insisting on continuing in their behaviour.

 

[xjx388]

I've shuffled off quite a few posts to AAH for multiple rule violations. I'm sure I didn't catch them all. Regardless, the topic of the thread is the Dunkin' punching incident, not word usage and certainly not each other. Do not personalize your arguments. Keep your posts civil.

There were some substantial posts made in relation to the usage of the word "thug." If you want to continue with that, I split this off into a new thread here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=351446

Thank you.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: xjx388