[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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mgidm86 said:
Talk about a wishy washy statement!
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It's a response to an employment tribunal decision which included:

“I conclude from … the totality of the evidence, that [Forstater] is absolutist in her view of sex and it is a core component of her belief that she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment. The approach is not worthy of respect in a democratic society.”
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/18/judge-rules-against-charity-worker-who-lost-job-over-transgender-tweets
 
Meadmaker said:
Law student being investigated for saying that women have vaginas and are physically weaker than men. (From Scotland)
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Absurd though that is, I can't say I'm surprised. Facts are now discriminatory. See my sig.
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Meanwhile, France has decided to allow men who have taken hormones for 12 months to play rugby with women at the domestic level.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...-rugby-gives-green-light-to-transgender-women

Maybe after a broken neck or two they'll re-think it, but I doubt it.
 
Meadmaker said:
In today's news:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/l...g-gender-discussion/ar-BB1gPBYr?ocid=msedgdhp

Law student being investigated for saying that women have vaginas and are physically weaker than men. (From Scotland)
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This is really getting ridiculous.

The amount of silencing and censoriousness is so far out of proportion to the volume of people who are transgender that it's a bit boggling. Add to that, the majority of those who are punished for expressing biological realities are female, and it gets very difficult for me to see this as not being misogynistic.
 
Meadmaker said:
In today's news:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/l...g-gender-discussion/ar-BB1gPBYr?ocid=msedgdhp

Law student being investigated for saying that women have vaginas and are physically weaker than men. (From Scotland)
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Maybe less newsworthy that it seems.

Abertay University released a statement on the matter, which it shared on Twitter. It read, in part: "To be absolutely clear, freedom of speech within the law is not only permitted at Abertay but is strongly encouraged."

A follow-up tweet from the school added: "All universities should be places where controversial, challenging or even upsetting issues can be debated in a constructive and collegial way. The university does not comment on student disciplinary cases and is duty bound to investigate any complaints received."
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So, it's clear that someone complained, and the university says that they are "duty bound to investigate any complaints received." However, when they say that "freedom of speech within the law is not only permitted at Abertay but is strongly encouraged", if we take that statement at face value, it seems likely that the result of the investigation will be that no disciplinary offence was committed here.
 
Emily's Cat said:
This is really getting ridiculous.

The amount of silencing and censoriousness is so far out of proportion to the volume of people who are transgender that it's a bit boggling. Add to that, the majority of those who are punished for expressing biological realities are female, and it gets very difficult for me to see this as not being misogynistic.
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Actually, I think this has more to do with the abominable treatment of homosexuals. People have naturally calibrated themselves a little more strongly in the other direction to avoid a repeat of that whole mess.
 
Meadmaker said:
What we could say, though, is that if a person's athletic ability is greater than the very best woman athlete, then that person is not a woman. That's a rather easy proof, but it's not useful. If we define transwomen as women, then the very best transwoman athlete is a woman, and if that transwoman is the very best woman, then there is no performance disparity between her and the very best woman, because she is a woman.
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Yeah that's more or less where I was going with it. You will note my response was to a comment that since there is a gap between transwomen athletes and female athletes then that proves transwomen aren't women. It doesn't any more than the fact that there is a gap between transwomen athletes and male athletes proves they aren't men.

My whole argument was that the whole thing was simply begging the question. As you say you could easily argue using the same logic that Kenyan women aren't women for the purposes of the marathon.

As I showed before Rachel McKinnon's times in her races are much closer to female times than they are male times in the events she competes in. I don't quite know what that tells us but it definitely doesn't seem to say 'she's a man!'
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Yeah that's more or less where I was going with it. You will note my response was to a comment that since there is a gap between transwomen athletes and female athletes then that proves transwomen aren't women. It doesn't any more than the fact that there is a gap between transwomen athletes and male athletes proves they aren't men.

My whole argument was that the whole thing was simply begging the question. As you say you could easily argue using the same logic that Kenyan women aren't women for the purposes of the marathon.

As I showed before Rachel McKinnon's times in her races are much closer to female times than they are male times in the events she competes in. I don't quite know what that tells us but it definitely doesn't seem to say 'she's a man!'
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Exactly. If you choose definitions correctly, the problem vanishes.

A consequence of that is that sometimes old fat people win gold medals or prize money for being the best athletes in their class.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
As I showed before Rachel McKinnon's times in her races are much closer to female times than they are male times in the events she competes in. I don't quite know what that tells us but it definitely doesn't seem to say 'she's a man!'
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Surely it tells us that she is a mediocre male athlete?
 
Puppycow said:
Maybe less newsworthy that it seems.



So, it's clear that someone complained, and the university says that they are "duty bound to investigate any complaints received." However, when they say that "freedom of speech within the law is not only permitted at Abertay but is strongly encouraged", if we take that statement at face value, it seems likely that the result of the investigation will be that no disciplinary offence was committed here.
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I'm wondering if the standard of investigating **any** complaint received is misguided. Doesn't that open up the university to devoting resources to frivolous complaints? Isn't there some initial evaluation as to whether a complaint is sincere, passes some minimum criteria, etc.?
 
Paul2 said:
I'm wondering if the standard of investigating **any** complaint received is misguided. Doesn't that open up the university to devoting resources to frivolous complaints? Isn't there some initial evaluation as to whether a complaint is sincere, passes some minimum criteria, etc.?
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Even though the investigation might be just a formality, and even if the case is just summarily dismissed after investigation, I think the very existence of frivolous complaints is kind of telling when it comes to our world today.


What she said was that women have vaginas and are not as strong as men. The very fact that she had to utter those words in the first place is kind of bizarre. The fact that there were complaints about those words is very bizarre. The fact that there has to be an investigation into them just shows that society is kind of crazy.

If she loses, then it will mean we are totally through the looking glass, but my guess is she will win. That's just a guess.
 
Emily's Cat said:
This is really getting ridiculous.

The amount of silencing and censoriousness is so far out of proportion to the volume of people who are transgender that it's a bit boggling. Add to that, the majority of those who are punished for expressing biological realities are female, and it gets very difficult for me to see this as not being misogynistic.
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Yeah. Adapting to be inclusive to transgender people makes sense. Upending everything for 0.3% of the population doesn't.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
As I showed before Rachel McKinnon's times in her races are much closer to female times than they are male times in the events she competes in. I don't quite know what that tells us but it definitely doesn't seem to say 'she's a man!'
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McKinnon is an overweight, mediocre male in merely so-so condition. Your noting of the times only tells us that top-of-their game, young, highly fit female athletes perform at a but below the level of mediocre, out of shape, middle-aged males.
 
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