[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[The Atheist]

Can anyone look at Laurel Hubbard and say that has happened? It's not so easy.

I am certain Laurel Hubbard has not had GRS and still retains a penis and testes. I hear that from both inside the sport and from what's being told to media that it's true.

If she's ranked 16th in the world as the article says then it would appear that at least 15 females have an even bigger advantage from somewhere.

The last time someone over 40 was ranked in the top 20 in weightlifting was when Hercules defended his title in 536 BC.

And Hubbard is keeping an actual woman out of NZ's number 1 spot. I can understand why women don't bother trying too hard - what's to train for when some bloke can pull on panties and beat you when they're in their 40s?

Men are bigger and stronger than women.

I repeat - look at the massive difference in records in weightlifting.

Like as was proven in tennis, the 500th best man in the world will beat the women's champion, even after a few beers. Men's records are over 50% heavier weights than women's. In 100m terms, women would be running 13.5 seconds to Usain Bolt's 9, so it's a much bigger advantage with strength than speed sports.

To say there's anything fair about biological males competing against biological females is nonsensical. It should not happen.

 

[qayak]

I think most posters here on both sides agree with this in principle.

the problem is that there is no real clear way to measure:

1. How much advantage particular individual has gained due to their male biology. or
2. How much of that advantage has been removed by hormone therapy.

I think there is a way to clearly see the advantage and we've seen it for a very long time. Just look at the increased performance when an athlete is doping. We may not know the exact amount it helps but it is pretty clear that it helps significantly. In a tight field an athlete consistently finishing out of the medals can become champion with a little help from a needle.

My concern in all this is what it does to female athletes. Just being female means they are at a disadvantage to all other athletes, trans-male, trans- female, and male.

Dies anyone think that a trans-man is ever going to beat Usain Bolt because they transitioned from female to male and insist on he/him as pronouns? Not likely! But here are people who think a male who transitions and uses her/she pronouns magically has their performance level reduced to that of a female. It's might boggling.

A second, or third, tier male athlete can transition and become an elite female athlete. If they were really brought down to female level as many believe, they would be a second or third tier female athlete after the transition.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

For those interested in comparisons to older athletes at the last summer olympics in 2016, here's a list of all 26 of them. (Warning, it's a "slideshow" style. To actually see the whole list, you have to click 26 times.)

https://www.inspiremore.com/26-olympians-over-age-40

There is one gymnast, one cyclist, a handful of track and field, all of whom are distance runners, and a whole lot of equestrian.

And among those who are not in equestrian or shooting sports, the oldest was 42.

(I think. As I said, it was a slideshow style, so I didn't go back and check my work. I am absolutely certain none of the 40+ athletes were in weightlifting.)

My view is that at this point given the tiny number of transwomen athletes (and also the relative novelty of women's olympic weightlifting tbh) then it's not possible to make any conclusions either way. None of these anecdotes illustrate much more than the prejudices people bring to the discussions, and, in some cases apparently, their willingness to throw around hate speech against transpeople when they feel like it.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

That's ridiculous,

Edited by Darat: 

Moderated thread

.

It's a statement of fact. The idea that transwomen have an insurmountable male advantage is pretty hard to justify when it's being surmounted on a daily basis

If she were ranked 16th in the world as a male prior to transition and then 16th in the world as a female after transition you would be correct. Removal of the advantage would place her near the same rank in her new demographic population as she held in her prior demographic population.

Actually no that's ridiculous. It makes no logical sense. The presence or absence of stronger men has no bearing on to what extent a transwoman has a 'male advantage' over cis-women.

Obviously, there are a lot of factors, many genetic which affect athletic performance, so no its not a completely level playing field. The segregation by sex is intended to make it level in terms of, and by controlling for, one significant factor, not all. Men who are slower than the fastest woman still have an advantage over the female field in terms of that particular factor even if there are other factors where they do not.

Of course there are a lot of factors. Which is why it's a bit silly to say that the presence of one will destroy the sport while ignoring any of the others. Especially when that one doesn't seem to be the deciding factor. If you look at the results of women's weightlifting in the Olympics since its inception the main advantage seems to come from being East Asian or maybe even more specifically Chinese. Probably helped by what was described as 'an epidemic of doping' but who knows?

If it survived that I'm sure it will survive a transwoman finishing 16th. So I think we can hold off on the panic and hate speech for now, no?

 

[Meadmaker]

How is age-related handicapping different from medical handicapping anyway?

I don't think transwomen competting in professional women's sports would ever be fair, and this shows why. Male athletes never turn into female athletes, they just get the medical equivalent of weighted shoes. At that point you might as well let old men compete in women's sports as well.

Yeah.

And sometimes we see variations on that proposal. I've never seen any suggestion for a "woman and old men" division, but I've seen suggestions for "skill level based" divisions.

But the "women and old men" division wouldn't solve the trans issue because a 25 year old male transgender would still insist that she belongs in the "women and old men" division, because she's a woman.

 

[theprestige]

Not likely! But here are people who think a male who transitions and uses her/she pronouns magically has their performance level reduced to that of a female. It's might boggling.

I don't think that's what's going on here. Rather, the discussion seems to be more about dismissing or ignoring the performance disparity in the name of trans rights.

The problem is not that transwomen perform better than women. It's that the performance disparity reasonably leads to the conclusion that transwomen are not women.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Biden administration says it will enforce federal transgender health care protections, undoing controversial Trump-era reversal

CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/10/poli...e-protections-biden-administration/index.html

 

[Ron Obvious]

The problem is not that transwomen perform better than women. It's that the performance disparity reasonably leads to the conclusion that transwomen are not women.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. It's a clear case of cognitive dissonance.

 

[theprestige]

Biden administration says it will enforce federal transgender health care protections, undoing controversial Trump-era reversal

CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/10/poli...e-protections-biden-administration/index.html

Seems reasonable to me.

I like the dishonesty in one of the quotes they printed: "no one should be discriminated against when seeking medical services because of who they are."

Totally reasonable and humanitarian on its face. But is actually code for, "transsexuals should be treated based on their own self-diagnosis and preferred outcomes, rather than based on sound medical principles."

Nobody says someone suffering from bipolar disorder is being discriminated against when seeking medical services because of who they are," just because in their manic phase they have a very different idea of what medical services they need, compared to what their doctor actually recommends.

 

[Meadmaker]

I don't think that's what's going on here. Rather, the discussion seems to be more about dismissing or ignoring the performance disparity in the name of trans rights.

The problem is not that transwomen perform better than women. It's that the performance disparity reasonably leads to the conclusion that transwomen are not women.

I read an article yesterday where a supporter of transwomen in women's sports said (quoting from memory, because I didn't save the link), "Keeping some women out of women's sports hurts all women, because it reinforces the stereotype that men are stronger than women."


Ummmm......well, I suppose it does reinforce that stereotype, but I'm not sure that hurts all women. I guess I would need some more explanation on that one.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I read an article yesterday where a supporter of transwomen in women's sports said (quoting from memory, because I didn't save the link), "Keeping some women out of women's sports hurts all some trans-women, because it reinforces the stereotype reality that men are stronger than women."

There, that seems more accurate.

 

[lionking]

I read an article yesterday where a supporter of transwomen in women's sports said (quoting from memory, because I didn't save the link), "Keeping some women out of women's sports hurts all women, because it reinforces the stereotype that men are stronger than women."


Ummmm......well, I suppose it does reinforce that stereotype, but I'm not sure that hurts all women. I guess I would need some more explanation on that one.

As I’ve said before, what hurts women in many ways, including physically, is male bodied transwomen competing in contact sport with cis women.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. It's a clear case of cognitive dissonance.

On the other hand... the performance disparity reasonably leads to the conclusion that transwomen are not men.

Which kind of leaves us no further forward.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I read an article yesterday where a supporter of transwomen in women's sports said (quoting from memory, because I didn't save the link), "Keeping some women out of women's sports hurts all women, because it reinforces the stereotype that men are stronger than women."


Ummmm......well, I suppose it does reinforce that stereotype, but I'm not sure that hurts all women. I guess I would need some more explanation on that one.

Just in the spirit of agreeing with you at some point I will say that if you have represented their position accurately then it is a pretty silly argument.

 

[Manger Douse]

On the other hand... the performance disparity reasonably leads to the conclusion that transwomen are not men.

Which kind of leaves us no further forward.

What performance disparity is there between transwomen and men?

 

[Ron Obvious]

On the other hand... the performance disparity reasonably leads to the conclusion that transwomen are not men.

Which kind of leaves us no further forward.

What performance disparity are you referring to? You mean self-declared transwomen who are not taking female hormones are demonstrably underperforming other men in athletic endeavours? I'm not aware of any such statistics.

Of course, some men are just not very athletic. If an athletically mediocre man becomes a competitive athlete by competing against the women, that doesn't lend any credence whatsoever to any underlying reality about them actually being women.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

What performance disparity are you referring to?

The performance difference between the very best transwomen athletes and male athletes.

Of course, some men are just not very athletic. If an athletically mediocre man becomes a competitive athlete by competing against the women, that doesn't lend any credence whatsoever to any underlying reality about them actually being women.

Doesn't lend any credence to them NOT being women either. It simply begs the question.

So I think the head of the nail remains pretty much unhit.

 

[Manger Douse]

The performance difference between the very best transwomen athletes and male athletes.
.

Source?

 

[Meadmaker]

The performance difference between the very best transwomen athletes and male athletes.

Not sure I'm following you. First, let's get a modifier out of the way. Did you mean for "very best" to modify "transwomen athletes", or also "male athletes".

In other words, was it intended to be the difference between the very best transwomen athletes, and the very best male athletes? Or was it intended to be the very best transwomen athletes versus the set of male athletes? I'll address both possibilities.

You said "the performance disparity reasonably leads to the conclusion that transwomen are not men."

So, taking one case at a time.

First possibility. The performance disparity between the very best transwomen athletes and the very best male athletes reasonably leads to the conclusion that transwomen are not men.

Why? It means that the very best transwomen aren't the very best men, but how can we draw any other conclusion from that? Connect the dots for me. It seems like you are saying that the distribution of athletic ability among some group, in this case transwomen, is different from the distribution of athletic ability among men, then the group cannot be men.

So, Israeli athletes have won no gold medals in any Olympic sport other than sailing, which, come on, it isn't a real sport. The very best Israeli athletes are therefore not as good as the very best male athletes. Therefore, Israeli athletes are not men? I don't think that's a reasonable conclusion, and I don't think it's any different from your reasoning about transwomen athletes.

(Aside, if you use my current definition of "men", then by definition, transwomen are not men, but I don't see how that relates to anything related to competition divisions for athletes. They aren't men, but they are male, and sports ought to be divided between males and females, not between men and women.)

Also, Bruce Jenner was indeed given the informal title of World's Greatest Athlete, and formally, won a gold medal. Laurel Hubbard was not the greatest in the world, but while competing as Gavin Hubbard, did set a New Zealand youth record, and did win events. I think Gaving Hubbard, who would subsequently be called Laurel, would be among the best male athletes.


Second possibility: The performance disparity between transwomen athletes (as a whole) and the very best male athletes reasonably leads to the conclusion that transwomen are not men.


That makes no sense. No one's performance is as good as the very best male athletes, so does that mean the only men are the very best male athletes?



I don't think we can conclude anything about who is and who is not a man by comparing athletic ability, and I don't think we ought to try.





What we could say, though, is that if a person's athletic ability is greater than the very best woman athlete, then that person is not a woman. That's a rather easy proof, but it's not useful. If we define transwomen as women, then the very best transwoman athlete is a woman, and if that transwoman is the very best woman, then there is no performance disparity between her and the very best woman, because she is a woman.

 

[Meadmaker]

Dang it. Forgot something.

If you don't mean to compare very best versus very best, then the very best transwomen are typically better than an awful lot of men, so there is no performance disparity between transwomen and men.