Elections are not won by despising voters

[Airfix]

It seemed (at least) that under Corbyn there was some energising of part of the base and some expression of left-wing principles.

Agreed.

The obsession with getting elected by appealing to Tories was always going to be a fools errand. But now we have Starmer who is managing to fail even worse than Corbyn and the only actual opposition appears to come from Premiership footballers on their days off.

Agreed.

Of course Corbyn failed on a number of fronts too not least of all buying into that Leftxit nonsense but he was certainly closer to what Labour need that Starmer is.

In 2017 that strategy resulted in Labour gaining 30 seats.
The only Labour leader since 1997 to gain seats in a General Election rather than losing seats.

You may not approve of Brexit, but the voters in Red Wall seats do.
And thus it is necessary to support them, not insult them.

To my mind Labour is fundamentally broken at the moment because it is trying to appeal across the board to get elected and having to manage fundamentally distinct and contradictory positions across the country.

They recently tried to attack the Tories from the right by campaigning against Corporation Tax rises.

It needs to find some principles, adopt some coherent distinct political positions and argue for them

Agreed.

and accept that might mean not winning the next election or the one after it or the one after that.

That's a risk that needs to be taken. But listening to and respecting voters reduces that risk.

I mean, let's remember that the LABOUR PARTY position in Scotland is that the people of Scotland are better off with a Tory government outside the EU than they would be with a left-wing government inside the EU.

The UK is outside the EU.
Were Scotland to break away it would still be outside the EU.

Were it to join the EU, the different customs unions would mean a customs border and customs tariffs on trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

There would be a requirement for a new currency.
A new DVLA.
A new Scottish Civil Aviation Authority.
A Scottish military.

There's already been a referendum in 2014 and all this was ruled out by 2 million votes to 1.6 million votes.

The SNP getting 1.2 million votes doesn't change that.

 

[Francesca R]

"Lose, lose, lose, lose, Blair, Blair, Blair, lose, lose, lose, lose"

--Peter Mandelson on Labour's last eleven general elections.

 

[Francesca R]

In 2017 that strategy resulted in Labour gaining 30 seats.
The only Labour leader [Corbyn] since 1997 to gain seats in a General Election rather than losing seats.

On that statistic Corbyn is, what, more electable than Blair was since Blair lost seats at every election post '97.

 

[catsmate]

Were it to join the EU, the different customs unions would mean a customs border and customs tariffs on trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

Rather like the one between rUK and Norn Iron....

There would be a requirement for a new currency.

Allow me to introduce you to......the Euro.

A new DVLA.

Having worked with both the DVLA and some Scottish government agencies I categorically say they'll manage the licensing and registration of drivers and vehicles better than the DVLA. Not that that is a high barrier to exceed given the decades of incompetence demonstrated in Swansea.
BTW, I'm sure you are aware that Norn Iron has it's own agency to manage vehicle operation licenses?

A new Scottish Civil Aviation Authority.

Indeed.
It may surprise you to learn that many countries, even smaller than a putative independent Scotland, manage to regulate civil aviation quite well.

A Scottish military.

Indeed. Of course it's completely bugger the UK's "Independent Nuclear Deterrent" (aka BoJo' big boy toys)

There's already been a referendum in 2014 and all this was ruled out by 2 million votes to 1.6 million votes.

So? The pro-union side were rather vehement about the benefits of EU membership and that, to retain those benefits, Scotland would need to remain in the UK. Funny that.....

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You may not approve of Brexit, but the voters in Red Wall seats do.
And thus it is necessary to support them, not insult them.

I'm unclear what insulting means here unless it means failing to wholeheartedly agree with them. You know Labour voters were almost two-to-one against Brexit, right?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Assuming the Crown's politics operates anything like that here in the Colonies, I assume what we're talking about is one large political demographic who's abandoned all pretense of sanity trying to keep the discourse about how "mean" everyone is to them.

Congratulations UK, you have Pearl Clutchers. If you figure out how to deal with them please share it with the rest of the world.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

There's already been a referendum in 2014 and all this was ruled out by 2 million votes to 1.6 million votes.

The SNP getting 1.2 million votes doesn't change that.

In 2014, 2m people voted to remain within the UK within the EU.

In 2016, 67% of the country voted to remain in the EU and the UK ignored that.

It seems there is a majority of Scots who want to stay in the UK within the EU. Unfortunately they no longer have that choice. That being the case they have to decide if they want to choose the UK or the EU. They can't have both.

It's funny isn't it .... England vote to leave and leave, Wales vote to leave and leave. N Ireland votes to remain and pretty much remains... and then Scotland votes to remain but has to leave.

And yes 1.2m votes for the SNP does change something. It gives them a mandate for a referendum.

Amazing how quickly taking back control and democracy goes out the window when it doesn't suit the Brexiteers isn't it? Almost like the whole thing was just an exercise in Union Jack waving English nationalism.....