Elections are not won by despising voters

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

When the English electorate is clamouring for right wing demagogues, and are impervious to "education" thanks to a right wing press determined to support those demagogues, I'm not sure what a left wing party has to offer.

It seemed (at least) that under Corbyn there was some energising of part of the base and some expression of left-wing principles.

The obsession with getting elected by appealing to Tories was always going to be a fools errand. But now we have Starmer who is managing to fail even worse than Corbyn and the only actual opposition appears to come from Premiership footballers on their days off.

Of course Corbyn failed on a number of fronts too not least of all buying into that Leftxit nonsense but he was certainly closer to what Labour need that Starmer is.

To my mind Labour is fundamentally broken at the moment because it is trying to appeal across the board to get elected and having to manage fundamentally distinct and contradictory positions across the country.

It needs to find some principles, adopt some coherent distinct political positions and argue for them and accept that might mean not winning the next election or the one after it or the one after that.

I mean, let's remember that the LABOUR PARTY position in Scotland is that the people of Scotland are better off with a Tory government outside the EU than they would be with a left-wing government inside the EU.

 

[Garrison]

To my mind Labour is fundamentally broken at the moment because it is trying to appeal across the board to get elected and having to manage fundamentally distinct and contradictory positions across the country.

And yet arguably that reaching out iss exactly what enabled Tony Blair to win 3 elections. And yes I get that hating Blair is still in fashion, but under him we got things like the minimum wage. For that matter if Starmer resigned tomorrow, who exactly would you have replace him from the actual pool of candidates in the PLP.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

And yet arguably that reaching out iss exactly what enabled Tony Blair to win 3 elections. And yes I get that hating Blair is still in fashion, but under him we got things like the minimum wage. For that matter if Starmer resigned tomorrow, who exactly would you have replace him from the actual pool of candidates in the PLP.

Tony Blair was 25 years ago. Things have changed.

I think your question is exactly the wrong question. it's not about picking a new leader from the PLP and thinking that solves it. It's about setting up an identity for Labour that makes sense and can be communicated to voters for long term success.

I don't know what Labour stands for anymore

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Tories have won 3 seats out of 49 in Scotland and yet their ministers feel confident going on TV and telling Scotland that it can't have an independence referendum no matter what they vote for. What was that about despising voters again?

 

[Darat]

Tony Blair was 25 years ago. Things have changed.

I think your question is exactly the wrong question. it's not about picking a new leader from the PLP and thinking that solves it. It's about setting up an identity for Labour that makes sense and can be communicated to voters for long term success.

I don't know what Labour stands for anymore

Yes you do. The same it has stood for since its inception bar the full on socialism. You have fallen for the Tory propaganda as amplified and extended on by the mainstream private media companies.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yes you do. The same it has stood for since its inception bar the full on socialism. You have fallen for the Tory propaganda as amplified and extended on by the mainstream private media companies.

No I really haven't.. see my post above. It doesn't believe that people in Scotland would be better off with a left-wing government than Tory rule for example.

When given the opportunity to oppose Brexit and the Tories they abstained.

Just for fun I google 'labour oppose' to see what has been in the news... apparently they are against...

- vaccine passports?
- corporation tax increases!?!
- windfall tax on supermarkets?!?
- the policing bill (fair enough)

I mean seriously what kind of Labour Party is opposing Tory plans to increase Corporation Tax??

 

[Carrot Flower King]

When the English electorate is clamouring for right wing demagogues, and are impervious to "education" thanks to a right wing press determined to support those demagogues, I'm not sure what a left wing party has to offer.

One of our neighbours said a scary thing to Carrot Flower Queen a few weeks back in describing the main regional paper/s (the Journal/Evening Chronicle in Newcastle) as being "too Labour"...A couple of papers who devote more coverage to soap operas, Little Mix, minor criminals Newcastle United and pictures of old pubs than to anything remotely political...All I could think was there must be some other versions of them than the ones I see.

Mind, this person thinks Johnson is doing a good job...But I'm not sure what they think that job is. I mean, if his job is a bit like Zaphod Beeblebrox being Galactic President and running around to cause a distraction and fill some headlines...

 

[Garrison]

Well the answer to the question I posed about the next leader the answer is that it may be not a member of the PLP:

Elections results 2021: Andy Burnham re-elected as Greater Manchester mayor

Labour's Andy Burnham has been re-elected as the mayor of Greater Manchester in a landslide victory.
The 51-year-old was backed by 67.3% of voters to continue as the region's mayor for another term.
Mr Burnham's popularity has seen him become the bookmakers' favourite to become the next Labour leader, even though he is not in the Commons.
Labour candidate Paul Dennett was also re-elected in the Salford city mayoral election, with 59% of the votes.

Given the way these Labour Mayor's seem to have bucked the trend, could it be as simple as when a Labour politician has actual power to implement Labour policies people actually like it? Surely not.

 

[Darat]

As an example of media framing (not saying bias because I think there are two aspects to the political reporting in the UK, the framing and the bias) look how Labour’s historic victory in Wales is placed in the running order - well below the loss of a single seat in England.

The framing is that “no one knows what labour stands for”, “Labour is a spent force” etc. No one is actually saying if Labour is so poisonous, if Labour can’t speak to the “working class”/traditional voter, if Labour despises voters how is the Welsh result possible?

 

[Darat]

No I really haven't.. see my post above. It doesn't believe that people in Scotland would be better off with a left-wing government than Tory rule for example.

When given the opportunity to oppose Brexit and the Tories they abstained.

Just for fun I google 'labour oppose' to see what has been in the news... apparently they are against...

- vaccine passports?
- corporation tax increases!?!
- windfall tax on supermarkets?!?
- the policing bill (fair enough)

I mean seriously what kind of Labour Party is opposing Tory plans to increase Corporation Tax??

You are in fact demonstrating what I said!

 

[Garrison]

As an example of media framing (not saying bias because I think there are two aspects to the political reporting in the UK, the framing and the bias) look how Labour’s historic victory in Wales is placed in the running order - well below the loss of a single seat in England.

The framing is that “no one knows what labour stands for”, “Labour is a spent force” etc. No one is actually saying if Labour is so poisonous, if Labour can’t speak to the “working class”/traditional voter, if Labour despises voters how is the Welsh result possible?

Likewise with the Mayoral results where Labour Mayors increased their vote share. I think a more realistic framing of the results in England would be that Johnson and the Tories got a 'vaccine bounce' helped by opening the pubs and shops that made Labour's leadership and policies all but irrelevant. The current framing leaves Labour searching for a non-existent solution to an invented problem.

 

[Francesca R]

look how Labour’s historic victory in Wales is placed in the running order - well below the loss of a single seat in England.

That would be because it is less significant of course.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Huh, what a coincidence....

https://mobile.twitter.com/LozzaFox/status/1390578453003571200

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The same contempt for voters seems to exist that has permeated through ever since Gordon Brown was leader.

There is no positive message from Labour, no respect, no hope, no optimism, just bitterness and it is not a vote winner.

Come on Labour ditch Keir Starmer and get a working class politician on the side of the people into the job.

Labour is plainly in deep trouble and bitterly divided between factions blaming each other. I must admit, this just looks like more blamestorming. As has been pointed out, Starmer wasn't in charge until recently, and Labour have been in freefall for many years.

You just seem very angry that Labour didn't get behind Brexit, ignoring the terrible truth that it completely divided Labour voters and they had no winning position. In your mind that seems to add up to out-of-touch London luvvies taking their solid working class Northern voters for granted. If Labour can't tell itself a more inclusive story than that it'll just continue to tear itself apart until there's nothing left and we'll need a new opposition party to rise and look competent enough to be electable and boot out the tories in maybe 20 years from now.

 

[catsmate]

Labour is plainly in deep trouble and bitterly divided between factions blaming each other. I must admit, this just looks like more blamestorming. As has been pointed out, Starmer wasn't in charge until recently, and Labour have been in freefall for many years.

You just seem very angry that Labour didn't get behind Brexit, ignoring the terrible truth that it completely divided Labour voters and they had no winning position. In your mind that seems to add up to out-of-touch London luvvies taking their solid working class Northern voters for granted. If Labour can't tell itself a more inclusive story than that it'll just continue to tear itself apart until there's nothing left and we'll need a new opposition party to rise and look competent enough to be electable and boot out the tories in maybe 20 years from now.

The UK won't last that long under the BoJo regime and it's ilk.

 

[dudalb]

Getting in a iff because a single seat was lost is silly. There might well have been more about local issues then anything else. something ideologues love to forget.

 

[The Don]

As an example of media framing (not saying bias because I think there are two aspects to the political reporting in the UK, the framing and the bias) look how Labour’s historic victory in Wales is placed in the running order - well below the loss of a single seat in England.

The framing is that “no one knows what labour stands for”, “Labour is a spent force” etc. No one is actually saying if Labour is so poisonous, if Labour can’t speak to the “working class”/traditional voter, if Labour despises voters how is the Welsh result possible?

Labour's success in Wales is the lead BBC story for me,.

Then again I have my region set up as Wales.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You are in fact demonstrating what I said!

I might be demonstrating something that you think, but certainly not what you said.

You said I don't know what Labour stand for because i was falling for media bias. I had not arrived at that conclusion by reading the papers. I had reached that conclusion by observing the words and actions/inactions of Labour politicians.

Linking to some media stories later doesn't say anything about how I reached my conclusion, as I said it was only for a giggle to see what they actually have been doing lately.

If, as you argue, it is clear what they stand for then it should be obvious 1) Whether those stories are accurate or not and 2) Why they have adopted some of the positions I have set out which are confused at best and contradictory at worst.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

As an example of media framing (not saying bias because I think there are two aspects to the political reporting in the UK, the framing and the bias) look how Labour’s historic victory in Wales is placed in the running order - well below the loss of a single seat in England.

The framing is that “no one knows what labour stands for”, “Labour is a spent force” etc. No one is actually saying if Labour is so poisonous, if Labour can’t speak to the “working class”/traditional voter, if Labour despises voters how is the Welsh result possible?

England taking priority over all others part of the UK is just SOP.

I had a quick look at the 'historic victory' and it looks like they didn't really make any gains since last time. I don't follow Welsh politics closely but isn't the story more that Labour haven't lost their hardcore Welsh voters (yet?) rather than they are somehow offering something attractive to Welsh voters?

 

[Aber]

Labour’s historic victory in Wales

?

They've had 30 members in the Senedd before, and they've gained 1 from the 2016 election, after giving the vote to 16 year olds for the first time.

The historic element is the reduction to 3 party politics, with the Lib Dems now on just 1 seat.