Man shot, killed by off-duty Dallas police officer who walked into wrong apartment p3

[Dave Rogers]

It's a tragic footnote that a manager said clerks were warned they would have to pay for counterfeits they accepted out of their wages to keep then alert, but nobody was ever actually docked. If that's true -- and if it's not, I think somebody would have said so -- Floyd ultimately died as a result of bad management.

No, he didn't. He died because an arrogant racist cop felt like demonstrating his power over the public and didn't care if he killed somebody while he was doing it. His response to being called was egregious enough to be considered the cause of Floyd's death. If he'd been a decent human being, or even a moderately awful one, Floyd would have survived however bad the store management might have been.

Dave

 

[plague311]

It's a tragic footnote that a manager said clerks were warned they would have to pay for counterfeits they accepted out of their wages to keep then alert, but nobody was ever actually docked. If that's true -- and if it's not, I think somebody would have said so -- Floyd ultimately died as a result of bad management.

I hadn't seen that no one had ever been docked. Even if that's the case, if they never meant to enforce it then it's not a very good tactic to scare your employees into compliance. I certainly wouldn't go for it.

The thing we'll never know is if Floyd actually knew the bill was counterfeit. If Floyd knew it was counterfeit then he should have resolved it when the employees came out and notified him of the issue.

I'd have agree with Dave though. Floyd died because a **** stick with a chip on his shoulder made an absolutely terrible decision that caused his death.

 

[Bob001]

No, he didn't. He died because an arrogant racist cop felt like demonstrating his power over the public and didn't care if he killed somebody while he was doing it. His response to being called was egregious enough to be considered the cause of Floyd's death. If he'd been a decent human being, or even a moderately awful one, Floyd would have survived however bad the store management might have been.

Dave

Yeah, I get it. Chauvin is indisputably a murderer. He killed Floyd. Most other cops wouldn't have done what he did. I just observe that the clerk didn't have to call the cops. Sometimes small acts have big consequences.

 

[plague311]

Yeah, I get it. Chauvin is indisputably a murderer. He killed Floyd. Most other cops wouldn't have done what he did. I just observe that the clerk didn't have to call the cops. Sometimes small acts have big consequences.

Right, but this is like blaming the cashier who was literally doing his job. The cashier did absolutely nothing wrong at all. He was in the right every single step of the way.

 

[Bob001]

Right, but this is like blaming the cashier who was literally doing his job. The cashier did absolutely nothing wrong at all. He was in the right every single step of the way.

I'm not blaming the cashier. The cashier himself said he wished he hadn't called the cops. That was I was responding to. Nothing diminishes Chauvin's responsibility.

 

[GlennB]

I'm not blaming the cashier. The cashier himself said he wished he hadn't called the cops. That was I was responding to. Nothing diminishes Chauvin's responsibility.

Your comment that "Floyd ultimately died as a result of bad management" places a portion of the blame on the store's management. That conclusion looks inescapable to me.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Your comment that "Floyd ultimately died as a result of bad management" places a portion of the blame on the store's management. That conclusion looks inescapable to me.

Looks pretty escapable to me. Do you blame the cashier for calling the cops? Do you blame everyone who interacted with Floyd that day that could have had him in a different place at a different time that would have not resulted in his death.

We don't generally blame people (or things) for normal decisions that had results they couldn't have possibly foreseen.

 

[Bob001]

Your comment that "Floyd ultimately died as a result of bad management" places a portion of the blame on the store's management. That conclusion looks inescapable to me.

Great. You win. I withdraw the comment.

 

[Rolfe]

I mean this in the nicest way I can say it, but seriously what are you talking about? No one is contesting that people stole things when the penalty was hanging. I'm very curious as to how this ties into the thread.

No you're not. And?

I was, probably naively, trying to initiate a conversation about whether draconian penalties as such really do have a deterrent effect. If someone knows they may be hanged for stealing a loaf, and they do it anyway, it seems it's not quite as simple as racking up the severity of the punishment, but that other things are in play and may be more important than the severity of the punishment in absolute terms.

But hey, carry on abusing me, I should coco.

 

[Belz...]

I was, probably naively, trying to initiate a conversation about whether draconian penalties as such really do have a deterrent effect.

Except that everyone in the thread seems to agree that they do not, and that it is instead the certainty of being caught that has the deterrent effect. So why bring up that dead horse again?

But hey, carry on abusing me, I should coco.

Abusing you? Surely you're joking. Where did I abuse you?

 

[Rolfe]

It was a horse that hadn't even been ridden when I made my first comment. The point about likelihood of being caught is a very valid one, though I think there's more than that going on.

But all I got was "so you think there shouldn't be any criminal laws?" Then a bunch of people telling me I was wrong, when I hadn't even made any claim.

 

[Samson]

Certainty of being caught: 100%
Deterrent effect 0%

 

[Belz...]

Certainty of being caught: 100%
Deterrent effect 0%

Hey, random made-up numbers! That's convincing!

 

[catsmate]

Any evidence deterrance actually works? People still stole things in the days when you could be hanged for stealing.

Some.
There is no detectable relationship between the severity of the punishment and the level of criminality but a moderate impact by very high levels of detection.

 

[catsmate]

So you think there shouldn't be any criminal laws, or what? It's pretty clear that what deters crime is not necessarily the severity of punishment, but the certainty. When someone commits a crime for gain -- as opposed to somebody who's drunk or high or crazy -- he expects to get away with it. Convincing him he'll get caught is a big part of deterrence, for him and others. But the punishment has to be commensurate with the crime. If you knew that robbing a bank might get you a month in jail, you'd keep playing the odds. When you know it might get you 20 years in the Graybar Motel, you think hard.

That's a whole mess of straw there.

 

[Rolfe]

Some.
There is no detectable relationship between the severity of the punishment and the level of criminality but a moderate impact by very high levels of detection.

I think that's a good point. I also think there's an influence of the level of desperation of the criminal. In the case of the stealing even though the penalty was death, people could be facing starvation for themselves and indeed their families, and trading off the risk would have seemed worth it, particularly if there seemed, as you say, to be a reasonable prospect of not being caught.

In this particular case though, there was an absolute certainty of being caught. So what then?

 

[catsmate]

I think that's a good point. I also think there's an influence of the level of desperation of the criminal. In the case of the stealing even though the penalty was death, people could be facing starvation for themselves and indeed their families, and trading off the risk would have seemed worth it, particularly if there seemed, as you say, to be a reasonable prospect of not being caught.

In this particular case though, there was an absolute certainty of being caught. So what then?

Caught does not necessarily mean prosecuted, let alone convicted. US police have enjoyed a remarkable immunity from the consequences of their actiosn for a long time.

 

[quadraginta]

Right, but this is like blaming the cashier who was literally doing his job. The cashier did absolutely nothing wrong at all. He was in the right every single step of the way.

I'm not sure I'd go that far.

He could have checked the bill before he accepted it and allowed Floyd to leave the premises.

Then it would have still been Floyd's. and the store and the cashier wouldn't have anything at all to do with anything.

 

[plague311]

I'm not sure I'd go that far.

He could have checked the bill before he accepted it and allowed Floyd to leave the premises.

Then it would have still been Floyd's. and the store and the cashier wouldn't have anything at all to do with anything.

I apologize, this is off topic, but if we wanted to resume it in the Floyd thread I would gladly participate.

 

[Samson]

Caught does not necessarily mean prosecuted, let alone convicted. US police have enjoyed a remarkable immunity from the consequences of their actiosn for a long time.

Yes indeed, Ask the West Memphis 3, the Norfolk 4 and the Central Park 5.
But lynch the low hanging fruit and everyone gets to sleep easy.