Man shot, killed by off-duty Dallas police officer who walked into wrong apartment p3

[catsmate]

I've argued in the past that the idea that "punishment" shouldn't be a factor in our criminal justice system and that rehabilitation should be our only focus is essentially saying exactly what Samson is saying.

And deterrence.

 

[catsmate]

Let's just note again that police work isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html

Number 22 IIRR.

Those jobs confer the illusion of control. Frontline policing is not the same.
No forester feels the threat of unpredictable attack by the tree. You know all this I think Bob001.

It seems we can add logging and the risks of forest management to the long list of subjects you don't understand.

 

[Rolfe]

And deterrence.

Any evidence deterrance actually works? People still stole things in the days when you could be hanged for stealing.

 

[Bob001]

Any evidence deterrance actually works? People still stole things in the days when you could be hanged for stealing.

So you think there shouldn't be any criminal laws, or what? It's pretty clear that what deters crime is not necessarily the severity of punishment, but the certainty. When someone commits a crime for gain -- as opposed to somebody who's drunk or high or crazy -- he expects to get away with it. Convincing him he'll get caught is a big part of deterrence, for him and others. But the punishment has to be commensurate with the crime. If you knew that robbing a bank might get you a month in jail, you'd keep playing the odds. When you know it might get you 20 years in the Graybar Motel, you think hard.

 

[JoeMorgue]

If punishment wasn't a deterrent literally nobody would try to avoid being caught after committing a crime.

 

[jimbob]

So you think there shouldn't be any criminal laws, or what? It's pretty clear that what deters crime is not necessarily the severity of punishment, but the certainty. When someone commits a crime for gain -- as opposed to somebody who's drunk or high or crazy -- he expects to get away with it. Convincing him he'll get caught is a big part of deterrence, for him and others. But the punishment has to be commensurate with the crime. If you knew that robbing a bank might get you a month in jail, you'd keep playing the odds. When you know it might get you 20 years in the Graybar Motel, you think hard.

From what I have read, thus is key. Increasingly severe penalties don't have much of a deterrent effect, but the chance of getting caught does.

 

[Darat]

From what I have read, thus is key. Increasingly severe penalties don't have much of a deterrent effect, but the chance of getting caught does.

And society’s attitude and your culture counts as well.

Our society and mainstream culture does not mind, in fact seems to finds it acceptable and even expected theft from the “stationery cupboard” at work. But stealing something worth a lot less from a shop - that is bad and deserves society’s disapprobation.

We see this extended to how “white collar” crime is often viewed.

It’s a complex mix.

 

[Rolfe]

So you think there shouldn't be any criminal laws, or what? It's pretty clear that what deters crime is not necessarily the severity of punishment, but the certainty. When someone commits a crime for gain -- as opposed to somebody who's drunk or high or crazy -- he expects to get away with it. Convincing him he'll get caught is a big part of deterrence, for him and others. But the punishment has to be commensurate with the crime. If you knew that robbing a bank might get you a month in jail, you'd keep playing the odds. When you know it might get you 20 years in the Graybar Motel, you think hard.

Rule of so, again. So you have no idea what I think, because I didn't happen to mention it. I repeat, people still stole stuff when the penalty for theft was hanging.

 

[plague311]

Rule of so, again. So you have no idea what I think, because I didn't happen to mention it. I repeat, people still stole stuff when the penalty for theft was hanging.

That's not actually a thing. You then go on to start the second sentence with "so".

What exactly is the point you're trying to make here? Maybe I'm not understanding how it ties into the thread.

 

[Bob001]

Rule of so, again. So you have no idea what I think, because I didn't happen to mention it. I repeat, people still stole stuff when the penalty for theft was hanging.

And they expected to get away with it, not get hanged. I repeat, what deters crime is generally the certainty of punishment more than the severity, within limits.

 

[Dr. Keith]

And they expected to get away with it, not get hanged. I repeat, what deters crime is generally the certainty of punishment more than the severity, within limits.

And in reality, the harsher the punishment the less likely they are to get caught. People cooperate with LEO if they think the perp is going to be treated fairly, but will have nothing to do with the legal system if they think it will dole out unreasonable punishments.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That's not actually a thing. You then go on to start the second sentence with "so".

What exactly is the point you're trying to make here? Maybe I'm not understanding how it ties into the thread.

The point is what what the point always is.

"Oh I just realized I'm wrong and have no way of arguing out of it, so I'm going to try to hijack the discussion away from the point and into a broad philosophical debate so I'm not wrong anymore."

 

[Dr. Keith]

The point is what what the point always is.

"Oh I just realized I'm wrong and have no way of arguing out of it, so I'm going to try to hijack the discussion away from the point and into a broad philosophical debate so I'm not wrong anymore."

That really depends on how you define wrong.

 

[plague311]

And in reality, the harsher the punishment the less likely they are to get caught. People cooperate with LEO if they think the perp is going to be treated fairly, but will have nothing to do with the legal system if they think it will dole out unreasonable punishments.

To give a recent example, the clerk that called the police on Floyd for the counterfeit $20 repeatedly said how terrible he felt, and how he wished he would have just paid for it out of his pocket.

The actual question becomes, what is his reaction going to be when\if that happens again? Is there any chance he'd call the police again or just deal with it by paying for it himself?

 

[Dr. Keith]

To give a recent example, the clerk that called the police on Floyd for the counterfeit $20 repeatedly said how terrible he felt, and how he wished he would have just paid for it out of his pocket.

The actual question becomes, what is his reaction going to be when\if that happens again? Is there any chance he'd call the police again or just deal with it by paying for it himself?

Exactly.

But the community won't work with the police to help clean up the neighborhood?

No ****.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm wrong when say that people still stole things even when the penalty was hanging? Maybe you need to have a word with history.

 

[plague311]

I'm wrong when say that people still stole things even when the penalty was hanging? Maybe you need to have a word with history.

I mean this in the nicest way I can say it, but seriously what are you talking about? No one is contesting that people stole things when the penalty was hanging. I'm very curious as to how this ties into the thread.

 

[Belz...]

I'm wrong when say that people still stole things even when the penalty was hanging?

No you're not. And?

 

[JoeMorgue]

My house is burning down: - "Somebody help me put the fire out!"
You house is burning down: - "You know what we need to do right now? Have a deep philosophical discussion about the moral outcomes of putting out house fires..."

 

[Bob001]

To give a recent example, the clerk that called the police on Floyd for the counterfeit $20 repeatedly said how terrible he felt, and how he wished he would have just paid for it out of his pocket.
.....

It's a tragic footnote that a manager said clerks were warned they would have to pay for counterfeits they accepted out of their wages to keep then alert, but nobody was ever actually docked. If that's true -- and if it's not, I think somebody would have said so -- Floyd ultimately died as a result of bad management.