Henri your comic genius. The idea that, ".... there can be no doubt at all that a book purporting MacDonald guilt would attract a bigger audience and money than a book about a tragic miscarriage of justice.", is so stupid that it is rolling on the floor hilarious.
Cont: Jeffrey MacDonald did it. He really did. Part II
- Thread starter BStrong
- Start date
Henri your comic genius. The idea that, ".... there can be no doubt at all that a book purporting MacDonald guilt would attract a bigger audience and money than a book about a tragic miscarriage of justice.", is so stupid that it is rolling on the floor hilarious.
As mentioned by others MacDonald was convicted years before McGinnis' book much less the TV mini series, so how could McGinnis' book have affected the "court of public opinion" in terms of MacDonald's original trial?
Oh and since there have been no Jury trials in relation to the MacDonald matter, except for the absurd Contract violation case with McGinnis, (And that matter had nothing to do with MacDonald's "innocence".), just how did any of this affect the outcome of any of MacDonald's appeals?
Of course arguing that a book and mini series affected how the Judges in all those appeals etc., is absurd on the face of it; especially since a certain Court gave MacDonald chance after chance. In fact MacDonald compared to the overwhelming majority of convicted criminals got a close to, if not actually, unprecedented number of kicks at the can. If anything the Court system has been sympathetic overall to MacDonald's case and if anything has been very disappointed in MacDonald's total failure to use his chances. Why? Well because he is guilty has sin has the evidence shows.
In the real world, appellate court judges don't access books and documentaries to assist them in their decision making process. All of the pertinent information on a particular case should be included in the legal briefs/motions. This hasn't deterred the Errol Morris' of the world from believing that their book or documentary will somehow sway a District or Circuit Court judge(s) to grant the appellant a new trial. In Morris' case, his penchant for hyperbolic rhetoric and his dismissal of documented fact did not help his cause and/or inmate's case in any way, shape or form.
https://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
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Henri McPhee
Illuminator
The Army CID and North Carolina judges just decide who did it and then 'find' or invent the evidence afterwards. Brilliant detection in the Sherlock Holmes way doesn't exist in practice. Helena Stoeckley's lawyer Leonard who was one of Judge Dupree's employees got it right when he said MacDonald was screwed, though he blamed it on MacDonald's defense team.
.Judge Fox and Judge Dupree had this funny idea that no reasonable fact finder or juror would decide differently even if the facts proved MacDonald actual innocence. It's ridiculous and defies common sense. Do you believe Colette hit MacDonald with a hairbrush as Stombaugh said?
That evidentiary hearing in 2012 was mostly prosecutor Bruce from the Justice Department talking. The defense attorney, Widenhouse, had a few words to say but he never mentioned the fabricated forensic evidence, probably because he doesn't understand it. Widenhouse mainly concentrated on Jimmy Britt and another confession newly discovered by Greg Mitchell, and Leonards's new evidence about Stoeckley:
https://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/downloads/2012-09-24-transcripts.pdf
BUT THE FIRST THING THAT CAME OUT WAS -- THAT I
13 OBSERVED WAS JUST MACDONALD'S ATTORNEY, HIS NAME IS BERNIE
14 SEGAL, CONSTANTLY CHALLENGING JUDGE DUPREE IN HIS RULINGS.
15 THE LAWYER SEEMED TO BE PRETTY ARROGANT AND BY THAT I MEAN
16 VERY ARROGANT. AND IT -- HE WAS MACDONALD'S COMMUNICATOR AND
17 HE HAD TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE JURY.
18 AND JUDGE DUPREE WAS A GOOD MAN AND HE SHOWED IT. I
19 MEAN, THE JURY KNEW THAT I'M SURE. HE ALSO TOLD THEM WHEN TO
20 TAKE RECESSES. HE TOLD THEM WHEN TO COME BACK THE NEXT DAY
21 AND HE TOOK CARE OF THE JURY.
22 AND TO BE CHALLENGED BY SOMEONE WHO REALLY -- HE
23 CAME FROM SAN FRANCISCO AND ACTED LIKE HE CAME FROM SAN
24 FRANCISCO. HIS ENTOURAGE ACTED LIKE THEY WERE -- THEY WERE IN
25 THE SOUTH AND WE WERE KIND OF BUMPKINS OR SOMETHING.
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Henri McPhee
Illuminator
I disagree. It's like newspapers and magazines are only interested in sensational and unusual cases. A run of the mill miscarriage of justice case is very likely to go unreported and make no money at all unless somebody makes a scene.
At the time of Fatal Vision Gunderson was thinking about writing a book about the case which would have been far more sympathetic to MacDonald. Rather unwisely Segal advised him not to go ahead with it on the grounds of client and attorney privilege. Segal seemed to be lacking in public relations ability even though as a law professor he had knowledge of the law.
McGinniss wrote a lot of nonsense about the Army CID lab not being able to detect amphetamines which was patently untrue.
MacDonald was never the monster which is portrayed on this forum. This is from the McGinniss case in 1987:
"care be taken with street people, alcoholics, the homeless, that was taken with other patients; and that included ensuring that they had a home to go to, that they had a way to get there, and that they were going to receive some additional professional advice wherever I would refer them.
By Mr. Bostwick:
Q Do you consider yourself a friend of Dr. MacDonald's?
A I knew Dr. MacDonald in a professional capacity, and I would characterize my relationship as a professional one.
Q Did you ever socialize with him when you were at work at Saint Mary's?
A When I was at work at Saint Mary's, the staff would normally sit together in the consulting area. And I listened and participated in conversation during the down times when it wasn't busy.
Q On any occasion, did you socialize with Dr. MacDonald outside Saint Mary?
A I only saw Dr. MacDonald on one occasion outside Saint Mary's. That was at a Christmas party that the entire emergency department came to.
Q Since he was detained in 1982, have you had any communications with Dr. MacDonald?
A I sent Dr. MacDonald a number of letters initially when he was detained, to really just offer my support and also to indicate that I was very sorry for the loss of his"
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
That quote is from the 1987 McGinniss trial:
https://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/html/1-1987-08-11-andrews.html
https://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/html/1-1987-08-11-andrews.html
Keep living in fantasy land Henri. As for Gunderson. Why should anyone take him seriously? Given his record of interview manipulation and a believer it utterly nutsoid conspiracy theories like the Satanic Ritual Abuse crap.
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
I agree that there were controversial Satanic Ritual accusations in California in the past which may have resulted in miscarriage of justice cases and wrongful imprisonment. In the MacDonald case Helena admitted she was a white witch and the others admitted they were in a Satanic cult. Gunderson was quite right. Detective Beasley got into trouble once for interviewing a MacDonald case witness when he was dressed up as a witch. The official UK position is that it doesn't happen:
https://patri-x.com/dr-jeffrey-macd...-of-the-gruesome-crime-in-a-us-govt-cover-up/
"Dr. Jeffrey R. MacDonald was falsely convicted in August, 1979 of the murder of his wife, Colette, and two young daughters (5 year old Kimberley, and 2 year old Kristen MacDonald) in a bloody and grisly satanic style murder scene that took place in their home in the early morning hours on Ft. Bragg Army base in North Carolina. The murders were committed by a local satanic cult of drug users (referred to as “hippies” in the newspapers at the time) which included five active duty enlisted army men who had targeted the MacDonald family because Dr. MacDonald was perceived by this group of drug users as a “snitch”; as MacDonald was adhering to the base commander’s new policy of reporting the names of Army personnel who were being admitted to the Emergency Room for overdosing on heroin or other serious drugs .One of those cult members (Greg Mitchell) had even threatened a pregnant Colette MacDonald, Jeff’s wife, at the Ft. Bragg college learning center where she was taking a course in psychology, on the very evening before her murder."
There is a bit abut this sort of thing in that English Justice book published by an anonymous solicitor involved in police court work back in 1932:
"There are, I fear, a very much larger number of sexual offences against women and children than is known. For various reasons, most of these are not reported. The only redeeming feature of the position is that the offenders are comparatively few, though the offences are numerous."
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Henri McPhee
Illuminator
You accept nothing in a murder investigation and you don't believe anything and you assume nothing.
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
The main plank of the prosecution plank seems to be that the there was supposed to be blood on the pajama top and pajama pocket before it was torn. Personally, I think that Laber and Stombaugh were making that up and that they were never real experts. If I had been a trial lawyer I would have found one or two real experts who begged to differ about that matter which Bernie Segal, and even Widenhouse, rather unwisely never did. As the wife of McGinniss testified they just shrugged it off.
There are some sensible opinions about MacDonald innocence on the internet:
ALEC K says:
MARCH 19, 2021 AT 8:24 PM
He’s innocent..You people are so uninformed, naive, gullible..It was without a doubt, revenge and a setup by a satanic cult..The evidence is overwhelming..Retired FBI Chief says the same as well as many other professionals, experts,etc. The real killers are walking free and an innocent man had his family brutally murdered, taken from him, then blamed on him, he spent 40 years in hardcore federal penitentiaries, and still has to endure that hell..
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Reply
TERRY D. BARNES says:
MARCH 24, 2021 AT 9:51 PM
Recently there has been proof to validate Dr.MacDonald’s account of the crime,such as a blonde synthetic hair which could,ve came from a wig,melted candle wax,and a syringe that could be used by drug users. My educated opinion is that Dr.MacDonald was wrongfully accused and the trial was fixed to find him guilty. Unfortunately,an innocent man is sitting in prison for a crime he didn’t commit.
There are some sensible opinions about MacDonald innocence on the internet:
ALEC K says:
MARCH 19, 2021 AT 8:24 PM
He’s innocent..You people are so uninformed, naive, gullible..It was without a doubt, revenge and a setup by a satanic cult..The evidence is overwhelming..Retired FBI Chief says the same as well as many other professionals, experts,etc. The real killers are walking free and an innocent man had his family brutally murdered, taken from him, then blamed on him, he spent 40 years in hardcore federal penitentiaries, and still has to endure that hell..
Like
Reply
TERRY D. BARNES says:
MARCH 24, 2021 AT 9:51 PM
Recently there has been proof to validate Dr.MacDonald’s account of the crime,such as a blonde synthetic hair which could,ve came from a wig,melted candle wax,and a syringe that could be used by drug users. My educated opinion is that Dr.MacDonald was wrongfully accused and the trial was fixed to find him guilty. Unfortunately,an innocent man is sitting in prison for a crime he didn’t commit.
Henri, I do have a question for you. Just how much do you know about North Carolina? Believe me, it's a very pro-military, pro-soldier, pro-Law-and-Order kind of state. The assertion that multiple judges, prosecutors, police, appellate courts, so on and so forth, would all want to frame an active-duty military doctor to the benefit of a drug-crazed hippy... well, why? Now the reverse, sure, there could be some motivation to frame a self-admitted hippy to cover for a crime committed by a soldier, but there's just no way you could convince so many "corrupt" judges, prosecutors, police, investigators and others to go along with framing a "good" guy to let a druggie go free. Just... why would they do it?
Reformed Offlian
Master Poster
Yup. I remember so many cases in those days of "psycho Army doctor panic" where a white professional officer like McDonald was railroaded when the real culprit was the Satantic Ritual Abusers and druggie hippies, which everyone was in denial about in the late '70s and '80s. Disgusting.
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
I just think there was every kind of corruption and abuse going on at the time with regard to the Fort Bragg drugs trade. Colonel Kriwanek's daughter was mixed up with the Stoeckley group and there have been suggestions that CID agent Ivory, now deceased, was mixed up in the drugs trade as well. The mafia have been known to have judges in their pocket in the past and there was once an allegation that Judge Dupree made a large bank deposit after the MacDonald trial. Judge Fox and I think Judge King now have been proved to be in bed with the prosecution as well. The local Fayetteville Observer journalist Pat Reese was a former drug addict who knew the Stoeckley group.
Anybody who has suggested that MacDonald is innocent have been ruthlessly slandered by the prosecution, like Ted Gunderson or Detective Beasley. Prosecutor Bruce at that 2012 evidentiary hearing suggested that Helena's lawyer Leonard was alcoholic, or even had been on drugs in order to discredit him. I don't know if Nashville cop Gaddis was ever discredited for saying Helena Stoeckley was as guilty as hell.
Ken Adachi thinks MacDonald is innocent and he has answered questions about the matter on the internet:
https://educate-yourself.org/lte/macdonaldcasequestions29jan11.shtml
"Q3. "The forensic evidence appears to support a sequence of events that shows Kristen was killed last, while Kimberley and Colette were attacked in the same room (Kimberley, thus, was the one victim who was not found where she was attacked, but her body was moved after she had been attacked)."
Reply: I don't know what the Army or the prosecution claimed was the order of who got murdered, but I do know that both the Army and the prosecution at the 1979 trail simply concocted a fantasy murder scenario with equally concocted "circumstantial evidence" buttressed by "expert" testimony from Army-hired hacks who simply made stuff up and presented it as "scientific facts" such as the overlapping stab wound holes in the pajama top. Utter rubbish fabricated by an utterly corrupt prosecution team of Murtagh and Blackburn and their corrupt minions."
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Henri McPhee
Illuminator
I don't think all that talk on other MacDonald forums proves MacDonald guilt like his stab wound was supposed to be a clean incision. Nobody knows for certain when that stab wound happened, or if he was unconscious at the time. Also all those suggestions on the forums about the lighting at the crime scene, and switching on lights. Colonel Rock thoroughly investigated that matter at the Article 32 in 1970.
Reformed Offlian
Master Poster
The question to you was: "Just how much do you know about North Carolina?"
ISTM the answer you were looking for is: "I don't know anything about North Carolina."
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
I remember one of my brothers visited America for a few months years ago and he made the remark on his return that Americans as a rule are much more right-wing than Britishers. I think that about sums it up though I hate to say people in North Carolina are neo-fascist. They need some first-class trial judges.
Henri is too busy overseeing MacFantasy Island to answer your question, but in 1999, I communicated with the author of the MacDonald Was Framed narrative. In the early 80's, newspaper reporter Fred Bost was looking to write a "fresh perspective" on this case. His slant was that the Army CID framed MacDonald in order to cover-up the fact that the children of Army personnel committed these horrific murders. The impetus for Bost's absurd narrative was his interview with red herring Helena Stoeckley. Helena weaved a conspiracy narrative involving a satanic cult, MacDonald being punished for refusing to supply drugs to members of this cult, and the Army CID putting great effort in maintaining her status as a top notch drug informant. In 1995, Bost co-authored the book Fatal Justice, and it provided MacDonald's appellate lawyers with source material for their various motions for a new trial. Bost's claims were taken apart by the government in several appellate hearings and 11 years prior to the publication of Fatal Justice, Bost was embarrassed on the stand at one of those appellate hearings. Bost had claimed that suspect Allen Mazzerolle had bonded out of jail prior to the murders, but he quickly backtracked after he was confronted on the stand with documentation that proved that Mazzerolle was in jail on 2/17/70.
https://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
Reformed Offlian
Master Poster
Your brother visited and made a remark. *That's* your basis?!
Also, right-wing would bias people in favor of McDonald (white, professional, military, male) and against hippies, not the other way around. Right-wing also correlates with a willingness to believe in stuff like SRA.
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
Detective Beasley always maintained that the documentation with regard to Mazerolle was forged or falsified and that he was out of jail at the time of the MacDonald murders. You should not just ignore and discredit good detectives:
http://www.crimearchives.net/1979_macdonald/affidavits/1986-05-05_beasley_stmt.html
Reformed Offlian
Master Poster
A "good" detective is only as good as his evidence. The only basis Beasley mentions for his claim is his recollection, without the benefit of notes, that Mazerolle was to have appeared at court on 2/17/70. That is not sufficient to reasonably conclude any sort of coverup. Beasley, and you, need a better reason to think that there was a coverup, regardless of how "good" a detective Beasley generally was.