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The behaviour of US police officers

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Personally I think there are more obvious cases of abuse than someone shooting a person actually brandishing and using a weapon on someone. There may or may not have been a better option, but there are more significant cases to discuss.
 
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Personally I think there are more obvious cases of abuse than someone shooting a person actually brandishing and using a weapon on someone. There may or may not have been a better option, but there are more significant cases to discuss.

Absolutely. I think some people, myself included, are talking in a broader sense and others are taking this broad discussion and applying it narrowly to this particular case. If you look at every case where a cop mistakenly shot and killed someone unarmed and ask if they were trained differently, whether it's assess the situation differently or fire less or aim differently, maybe some of those people would still be alive. I think that's a big deal.

And I think if you have to pull a gun it's a kill or be killed situation and you should always fire to kill is good on paper in the same way that abstinence is the best for of safe sex. Like yeah, that's true, but they're going to get it wrong, and right now they're getting it wrong too often. If that's the only answer you have, it's not good.
 
North Carolina police department is refusing to release Body Camera footage of the shooting of a Balck Man Wendesday whilw serving a drug offense warrent.
This stinks on ice. I get suspicous every time any Government bureaucracy refuses to release information about a potentially damaging situation. 99% of the time they are trying to cover their ass.'
Small Southern City trying to brush what looks like a unjusjtifed shooting of a black.under the wraps. What asurprise. If blacks have reason to mistrust police departments in the North ,think abuut how much worse the mistruat is in the south, given the history there.
 
A question on the highlighted stat.

You say that 46 rounds hit people. As phrased, that's the number of rounds, not the number people that were shot. I'm curious because I'm looking for the percentage of police shootings that were fatal. If those 46 rounds hit 20 people, then you are looking at a 35% fatality rate in police shootings. If there were 46 separate people hit (one bullet each), then you have more like a 15% fatality rate in police shootings.

I haven't found reliable statistics for police shootings in the US, but I think the fatality rate is around 55% based on this: https://thecrimereport.org/2021/01/06/data-lacking-on-non-fatal-shootings-by-police/
But that's an article specifically about the fact that we don't have data on non-lethal shootings.

Basically, I'm looking for a way to compare those numbers to US numbers in a meaningful way.

I think there's some merit to questioning the data they do receive also. The police aren't exactly what I'd call forthright about their incident reporting.
 
Where has this come from.

I was trying to come up with a scenario in which a shoot to wound scenario might be appropriate, instead of using available less lethal options. That's really about all I could come up with. Bad guy has gun but isn't immediately threatening anyone but no safe way for police to get close enough to use a tazer.
 
No one is talking about shooting anyone in the hand or shooting a gun out of a hand.

Really you guys, if you want to argue shoot to kill is the only option if you are going to shoot, at least stop with this BS straw man.

The girl who was just killed had a very large body mass. The cop was very close. If he had shot her below the waist there's no doubt she wouldn't have stabbed the other girl. Shoot the girl in the hip and she likely wouldn't be dead.

But the cop was following his training.

The discussion is about dropping the shoot to kill or don't shoot mantra. Allow some cops to take an alternative shot if they think they safely can. Look at other police models in other countries.

Open the discussion. Change the paradigm. Don't think just because it is ingrained in your belief system that you can't possibly challenge that belief.

Really wasn't meant to be a strawman. I didn't realize you wanted the cop to aim and fire at the suspects waist or just below. Sorry, but no, if someone's brandishing a knife inches from my neck I want the best chance at them being stopped and as immediately as possible, with the best chance of success. That's going to be center mass. I find it hard to believe police in Europe would've taken a different approach in this situation. There could be some scenario where shooting to wound is better, but more likely than not there was probably a better less lethal option IMO. I'd like to see examples of shoot to wound police shootings in Europe, and what their doctrines and training are. Google is letting me down.

ETA1: I disagree with your assertation that if the cop had shot her in the hip theres no doubt she wouldn't have stabbed the other girl. This was a highly stressful and very fluid situation. He may have missed. He may may have taken much longer to aim and by then she'd stabbed the other girl, he may have shot her and she stabbed the other girl anyways. Is it possible that had he tried to shoot her hip then no one would've died? Sure. I don't know that beyond a doubt either.

ETA2: actually there was a police shooting here some years ago where shooting to wound would've been better than center of mass. SWAT team had a mentally ill homeless man surrounded right at the edge of the Sandia National Forest. But still just in Albuquerque city limits (unluckily for the homeless guy).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0ABxdhOgGQ&ab_channel=HenryLopez

Watch the video. But ya know, they could've just backed off after the tazer and not shot him at all. If police shoot because there is an IMMEDIATE and CLEAR, potentially DEADLY threat to a member of the public or themselves then they should do their best to end the threat ASAP.... IMO. If there is no such threat then why are they shooting??
 
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North Carolina police department is refusing to release Body Camera footage of the shooting of a Balck Man Wendesday whilw serving a drug offense warrent.
This stinks on ice. I get suspicous every time any Government bureaucracy refuses to release information about a potentially damaging situation. 99% of the time they are trying to cover their ass.'
Small Southern City trying to brush what looks like a unjusjtifed shooting of a black.under the wraps. What asurprise. If blacks have reason to mistrust police departments in the North ,think abuut how much worse the mistruat is in the south, given the history there.

When you think about how, for instance, the Columbus PD released the body-camera footage related to the recent shooting in that city which they contend is exculpatory that very night, it is nearly impossible to see another department's delaying or even outright refusing to release footage as anything other than a concession the video at the very least doesn't look good for the officer(s) involved.
 
When you think about how, for instance, the Columbus PD released the body-camera footage related to the recent shooting in that city which they contend is exculpatory that very night, it is nearly impossible to see another department's delaying or even outright refusing to release footage as anything other than a concession the video at the very least doesn't look good for the officer(s) involved.

Oh we'll be hearing about how the video doesn't show "the whole story" or "you had to be there to really know what happened" anytime now.
 
The Columbus incident makes me wonder if most police shouldn't be required to be armed with a single action revolver, hammer down on an empty chamber. Might not stop them shooting people but at least they couldn't unload four rounds into someone in two seconds.
Would probably have prevented the Daunte Wright incident altogether.

Couldn't/wouldn't be acceptable to the police or large portions of the public on the grounds that the police would be routinely out-gunned. Indeed, I wouldn't be shocked to find a majority of people supporting higher power, larger magazine weapons with more shots per minute for the police.
 
Really wasn't meant to be a strawman. I didn't realize you wanted the cop to aim and fire at the suspects waist or just below. Sorry, but no, if someone's brandishing a knife inches from my neck I want the best chance at them being stopped and as immediately as possible, with the best chance of success. That's going to be center mass.
First, in the case of the shot dead teenager, the knife was not "inches from [the other girl's] neck".

Second, for whatever reason people discussing this issue, you included, insist on changing the circumstances of the example into something they can successfully argue against, despite the fact no one is arguing the straw man circumstances.

Why are people building straw men to argue against? Obviously, the real issue is very difficult to defend.
IN THIS CASE, this is one example where the cop could have used another option had he not been trained to only shoot to kill.

Center mass in this case was not just the girl's chest. I'm repeating myself yet again, I'm annoyed at attempts to change my argument to something it isn't.

The girl presented a large target, the cop was close enough he apparently wasn't concerned about shooting the girl who was being attacked with that knife. He could have shot into the victim's hip or very large thigh.

Think about that. Was the cop putting the girl who was at risk of being stabbed at more risk by shooting so close to her? What if one of his shots hit her instead of the girl holding the knife?

He felt safe enough to shoot the knife wielder, why not shoot her large ass and/or thighs?

We know he didn't because he was trained to shoot to kill or don't shoot. I am not blaming the cop for following his training. I'd like to see that training addressed.

Can those of you arguing against this for one second simply consider other options than the knee-jerk shoot to kill or don't shoot? Are you (several people here) incapable of rethinking what you believe to be true?
Is there nothing in your lives you were absolutely certain of that additional evidence led you to change that certain belief? Isn't that what critical thinking is about, considering one's biases might be wrong?


I find it hard to believe police in Europe would've taken a different approach in this situation. There could be some scenario where shooting to wound is better, but more likely than not there was probably a better less lethal option IMO. I'd like to see examples of shoot to wound police shootings in Europe, and what their doctrines and training are. Google is letting me down.
No doubt you find it hard to believe, but why not look at the evidence?

ETA1: I disagree with your assertation that if the cop had shot her in the hip theres no doubt she wouldn't have stabbed the other girl.This was a highly stressful and very fluid situation. He may have missed. He may may have taken much longer to aim and by then she'd stabbed the other girl, he may have shot her and she stabbed the other girl anyways. Is it possible that had he tried to shoot her hip then no one would've died? Sure. I don't know that beyond a doubt either.
Good grief, you think getting shot wouldn't have gotten her attention? This is nonsense. How about the risk of the cop hitting the wrong girl? Why are you excluding that from possible outcomes?

[snipped the rest, that shooting of the homeless man was clear cut murder and the cops were never charged.]
 
What exactly do you think a very well-trained Danish cop would have done in this specific circumstance? I can imagine they would do better than US cops in many other circumstances mentioned in the thread but not in this one. I think they would have done exactly the same thing.

Consider a UK police officer, they wouldn’t even have had the option to use a gun. Do you think they would have stood by and let the criminal kill people?
 
Personally I think there are more obvious cases of abuse than someone shooting a person actually brandishing and using a weapon on someone. There may or may not have been a better option, but there are more significant cases to discuss.

I agree with this, given what we see in the video* I would say the worse that should happen to the police officer is a refresher training course, but I think it does reveal a deep-set mentality in USA society.




(*have to note it is revealing how no one is discussing all the other things that could have happened prior to the video or all other kinds of could have” excuses)
 
A question on the highlighted stat.

You say that 46 rounds hit people. As phrased, that's the number of rounds, not the number people that were shot. I'm curious because I'm looking for the percentage of police shootings that were fatal. If those 46 rounds hit 20 people, then you are looking at a 35% fatality rate in police shootings. If there were 46 separate people hit (one bullet each), then you have more like a 15% fatality rate in police shootings.

I haven't found reliable statistics for police shootings in the US, but I think the fatality rate is around 55% based on this: https://thecrimereport.org/2021/01/06/data-lacking-on-non-fatal-shootings-by-police/
But that's an article specifically about the fact that we don't have data on non-lethal shootings.

Basically, I'm looking for a way to compare those numbers to US numbers in a meaningful way.

I don’t think you can. If you looked at UK figures and found that 100% of police shootings are fatal I would say that could be a good thing as our police should only ever be using firearms when there is no other choice to protect themselves and the public from immediate deadly harm. But if I saw the same 100% fatality rate in the USA I would be very concerned since we know that the USA police don’t use the same test.

(There is another point in that every time a gun is used by the police in the UK - and by used I don’t mean fired I mean either brandished, accessed or fired it is recorded so we have accurate figures for gun use in the UK. We know the USA reporting on police is incredibly fragmented and non-standardised across the board.)

It really does seem that in the set of ”developed” countries the USA is genuinely exceptional in regards to their policing.
 
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Really wasn't meant to be a strawman. I didn't realize you wanted the cop to aim and fire at the suspects waist or just below. Sorry, but no, if someone's brandishing a knife inches from my neck I want the best chance at them being stopped and as immediately as possible, with the best chance of success. That's going to be center mass. I find it hard to believe police in Europe would've taken a different approach in this situation.

…snip…

In general all UK police officers would have had to use a different approach since they wouldn’t have a gun as an option.
 
A UK police officer would have the options of

- taser, if they have it
- baton strike, probably to the arm or head
- charge her and grapple her

Each of those would mean a high chance that the other girl would be stabbed and a chance the officer is stabbed. It is unlikely that the girl would be stabbed multiple times as the girl with the knife is now being dealt with by the police.

Considering how many other people were there, the stabbed girl would get assistance. An ambulance would be called. There is a good chance she would survive.

That scenario is born out by the relative lack of deaths in the UK when the police act and arrest. Here is what happened when a male attacked the police in Wales armed with two knives. One officer received multiple stabs to his vest as he held the attacker, who was tasered and then dropped the knives.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/sickening-moment-man-armed-two-14525199

No one died. That is highly unlikely to have happened if the same thing happened in the USA or Europe, where officers are armed.
 
A UK police officer would have the options of

- taser, if they have it
- baton strike, probably to the arm or head
- charge her and grapple her

Each of those would mean a high chance that the other girl would be stabbed and a chance the officer is stabbed. It is unlikely that the girl would be stabbed multiple times as the girl with the knife is now being dealt with by the police.

Considering how many other people were there, the stabbed girl would get assistance. An ambulance would be called. There is a good chance she would survive.

That scenario is born out by the relative lack of deaths in the UK when the police act and arrest. Here is what happened when a male attacked the police in Wales armed with two knives. One officer received multiple stabs to his vest as he held the attacker, who was tasered and then dropped the knives.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/sickening-moment-man-armed-two-14525199

No one died. That is highly unlikely to have happened if the same thing happened in the USA or Europe, where officers are armed.

I'm not a huge fan of any LEO but watch this and weep Usians, watch it and weep.
 
1. How about we make a law that if the gunned down suspect doesn't have a gun or a knife: automatic grand jury for the police officer. And the prosecuting attorney at the grand jury trial comes from a federal pool, completely outside that city/state.

2. All police consolidated to state police

3. disarm and demilitarize the police. Maybe we can recruit English officers to then train our police on DE-escalation for a change.

<Ahem>Got something against Welsh or Scottish officers?*

*Sorry, the constant conflating of British with English is a sore point with us Celts ;)

Otherwise good points ...
 
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It's not my opinion. It's the opinion of most trained police forces.

So how successful are those "many" forces at shooting limbs and not hitting an artery?

These are the weapon use statistics from the Danish police

https://politi.dk/-/media/mediefile...hash=45A95F51DBA560A5393E2518574571252324A812

Every time an officer draws his weapon an incident rapport is filed.

The columns from left to right are; "Year", "No. of incidents", "No. of incidents where shots were fired at a person", "Perpetrator dead", "Perpetrator injured", "Perpetrator uninjured"

picture.php


As you can see, in the period 2014-2019 there was 24 incidents where shots were fired. 5 persons died, 17 persons suffered injuries, and 3 persons were uninjured. So, 80% success rate.

The Danish law governing police use of force explicitly states :

§ 7. Skud mod person skal afgives, således at følgeskader søges begrænset til et minimum, og på en sådan måde, at skuddene i den foreliggende situation ikke udgør en nærliggende risiko for andre.

English translation:
§ 7. Shots fired at a person must be fired so that consequential damages are sought to be kept to a minimum, and in such a way that the shots in the present situation do not constitute an imminent risk to others.

The law also explicitly states that before shooting at people officers are required to warn that they are about to shoot and likewise required to fire warning shots before shooting at people. Also officers MUST ensure that people are given time to comply with instructions before shooting. Only in the most extreme of circumstances can they bypass these requirements.

Danish police are in general not allowed to draw their weapons as a preventative measure.
 
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