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The behaviour of US police officers

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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
https://twitter.com/ConLawWarrior/status/1384515633019240448



Documents embedded in tweets. Basically, New York has abolished qualified immunity, and lawyers have sent out a letter to cops advising them that now they should not engage in stop & frisk or other searches of people or property unless they're actually sure that what they're doing is legal. It also advises them to avoid using physical force unless it's actually necessary.
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Of course this is all rather redundant, I mean there is no way that any police officer was ever illegally carrying out a stop & frisk or using illegal force….
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
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This city requires, by law, a license to ride a bike. Cops hassling black people for not having their bike license is a very predictable consequence of this.
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Licensing one's bike is not the same as licensing to ride a bike.

Bike thefts are rampant in places. Here the reason for licensing (I believe it is called registering) your bike is so you can get it back if it is stolen.


I'm not ready to lump this in with hassling blacks without more context. Not ruling it out mind you, but not ruling it in either.
 
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ponderingturtle said:
But that isn't done at the local level, so you are unlikely to drive from somewhere you do not need this license to somewhere you do. For a motor vehicle comparison it would be some added sticker to legally have a car in a certain town as a local ordinance, not for parking or anything, just to drive through.

And I am not sure that the operator is licensed instead of the bike being registered.

Here are the Poughkeepsie bicycle registration requirements. Though it seems to only apply to residents.

"It shall be unlawful for any resident of the City of Poughkeepsie to operate, use or permit to be used or operated or rent for use any bicycle with a wheel size of 20 inches or larger upon the public highways, streets, avenues, parks and public places in the City of Poughkeepsie without first registering the bicycle with the Police Department and obtaining a certificate of registration and identification sticker."

https://ecode360.com/27010005
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Exactly. And I've always been annoyed that you are supposed to ride your bike on a dangerous street when there is a sidewalk. Some idiot idea that it was better the bike rider is at risk than a pedestrian on the sidewalk?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Related:

https://crosscut.com/news/2020/12/nearly-half-seattles-helmet-citations-go-homeless-people

These petty infractions are selectively enforced by the cops against marginalized populations.
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This reeks of lacking proper denominators.

Not that many homeless people around here have bikes. Most bike riders around here use helmets.

Seattle and surrounding burbs have become quite the bike riding friendly environment. Lots of very serious bike riders here, expensive bikes and gear and always helmets.

Lots of folks annoyed when they lose a traffic lane to a bike lane. Too bad, less cars on the roads benefits us all.
 
JoeMorgue said:
My point is inconsistency of what the laws are is a type of injustice.

If I can might right turn on red in Mayberry but can't in Metropolis, that's a law I can't be expected to remember, and therefore it's wrong.

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse" was never meant to be a dump stat for law enforcement.
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What kinds of turns are or are not allowed in what circumstances and the signage required to denote such are typically already state laws. Unclear markings or lack of markings at an intersection where exceptions to standard rules are in play could get you off.

But then that doesn't fix the problem, does it?

My metropolitan area straddles 2 states with different laws regarding U-turns.

Your solution does nothing about that.

Finally, yes, if you are traveling somewhere, you should familiarize yourself with local customs and respect them, not insist people at the place you are visiting as a guest realign to you.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Licensing one's bike is not the same as licensing to ride a bike.

Bike thefts are rampant in places. Here the reason for licensing (I believe it is called registering) your bike is so you can get it back if it is stolen.


I'm not ready to lump this in with hassling blacks without more context. Not ruling it out mind you, but not ruling it in either.
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Of course the fine for an unregistered bike that I found was $10. Not sure how a $10 fine equates to leading someone off in handcuffs.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
What kinds of turns are or are not allowed in what circumstances and the signage required to denote such are typically already state laws. Unclear markings or lack of markings at an intersection where exceptions to standard rules are in play could get you off.

But then that doesn't fix the problem, does it?

My metropolitan area straddles 2 states with different laws regarding U-turns.

Your solution does nothing about that.

Finally, yes, if you are traveling somewhere, you should familiarize yourself with local customs and respect them, not insist people at the place you are visiting as a guest realign to you.
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I'm saying a society where put someone in a random position and go "Okay now list off all the laws you have to follow right now" where everyone agrees that

A) Nobody can do that
B) If you can't do that cops have a right to ask you 20 questions and murder you if don't get it right.

Is not a just one.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
What kinds of turns are or are not allowed in what circumstances and the signage required to denote such are typically already state laws. Unclear markings or lack of markings at an intersection where exceptions to standard rules are in play could get you off.

But then that doesn't fix the problem, does it?

My metropolitan area straddles 2 states with different laws regarding U-turns.

Your solution does nothing about that.
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That's probably handled by jurisdictional boundaries. The city PD is going to be patrolling the city and handing out citations for illegal U-turns within city limits. The state cops aren't. They're gonna be busy on the state highways and other state areas not already covered by local law enforcement.

Anecdote: I once took a motorcycle training class where one of the other students was a sheriff's deputy. According to him, the deputies absolutely do not want to bother with penny-ante stuff like speeding tickets. They'd much rather let the state cops deal with that, so they can focus on getting their SWAT on, or whatever other macho crap sherriff's deputies are into.

So when it comes to u-turns:

City limits::city ordinances::city PD

County roads::state laws::sherriff's deputies

State highways::state laws::state cops
 
Dave Rogers said:
The question is, why do there need to be such laws? Any law is a balance between the cost of loss of civil liberty against the benefit of preventing behaviour that harms others. In the case of cyclists, what's the harm that's being prevented, and does its prevention actually compensate the loss of liberty that this exact case exemplifies? Cars kill people other than their drivers when improperly operated, so we accept the cost because reducing that death rate is a very clear benefit. Deaths of non-cyclists in cycling accidents, while not unknown, are so rare as to be far less of a cost. What's the justification for restricting or regulating cycle ownership here?

Dave
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I agree with this, and live, thankfully, in a place where cycling does not require licensing or registration, though proposals occasionally arise here and there.

(nb. interruption of a few hours here, and I have not updated forum to see what else was said, before continuing here)

I do agree with helmet laws. In a couple of weeks I will celebrate the 9th anniversary of the cycling accident that took me forever off the road, wherein a car hit me. While I was in a coma, the driver serenely drove home. The helmet was pretty nasty looking after this, and though I had a lot of issues, I did not die, and considering that I did break my neck and my skull and suffer permanent brain stem damage, I credit the helmet for a lot.

That said, I am pretty sure that, even though it's quite possible the cops in this case are always dickheads to everyone, I can bet that if the cyclists had been white, they would not have been led away and had their bikes confiscated for a minor traffic law violation.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Exactly. And I've always been annoyed that you are supposed to ride your bike on a dangerous street when there is a sidewalk. Some idiot idea that it was better the bike rider is at risk than a pedestrian on the sidewalk?
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Depends on the jurisdiction, but I quite disagree with this. Bicyclists are a serious hazard to walkers on sidewalks. They belong among traffic, and the traffic should learn to behave properly. This is not the only problem, though. Cyclists on sidewalks end up crossing traffic and approaching intersections from the wrong direction, and it's actually a very hazardous situation for them as well, unless they dismount and walk at every intersection. Safe cycling on a sidewalk is essentially impractical if you are a serious cyclist.

Badly behaved drivers are certainly a hazard to cyclists (and boy do I ever know that!) but the answer is not to make cycling less practical, but to make drivers more aware that bicycles are legitimate users of the highways.

Cities should, ideally, have bicycle lanes, which are not on the sidewalk, but on the edge of the highway, clearly marked, and to which they have the preferential right of occupancy. This is the practice in some places like Burlington, Vermont, and once you're used to it, it works well.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Of course the fine for an unregistered bike that I found was $10. Not sure how a $10 fine equates to leading someone off in handcuffs.
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Unless you are suspected of and/or charged with bike theft.

And I'm going by how easily they appeared to give up rather than offering something to show those were not stolen bikes.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
I'm saying a society where put someone in a random position and go "Okay now list off all the laws you have to follow right now" where everyone agrees that

A) Nobody can do that
B) If you can't do that cops have a right to ask you 20 questions and murder you if don't get it right.

Is not a just one.
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I've seen people say that one of the reasons that you should never, ever allow police in your home without a warrant is because they will almost certainly be able to spot something somewhere in your home that violates some law that you don't realize you're breaking.
 
Armitage72 said:
I've seen people say that one of the reasons that you should never, ever allow police in your home without a warrant is because they will almost certainly be able to spot something somewhere in your home that violates some law that you don't realize you're breaking.
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Or they’ll find your pot lol
 
With regards to state police, are they considered a higher authority over local police? Or do they require permission, for example, to come into a certain city and enforcing law?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Unless you are suspected of and/or charged with bike theft.

And I'm going by how easily they appeared to give up rather than offering something to show those were not stolen bikes.
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It is, of course, possible, but lacking further information, we can't know. What we can see is that an inordinately large number of cops descended on them. And what could they have shown? Cyclists don't usually carry receipts for their bicycles. The bikes could be 20 years old, hand-me-downs. Who the hell has paperwork for a bike?

I don't carry the receipt for my bike when I ride. I never did. Of course I'm an old white guy, so nobody is going to say I stole my bike. I could steal a bike a day and get away with it. If I did, I sure wouldn't steal crappy old Huffies like the ones in the video, though.

Of course it's possible they were just as bad as some people would like them to be, but it's also possible that in the situation they found themselves in they realized that they were outnumbered and outgunned, and that nothing they did could prevent the inevitable. If a cop with a gun says he's taking your bike, do you struggle for it, knowing that the next thing is that he'll draw his gun and kneel on your neck, or send you to jail for a handful of trumped-up charges?
 
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