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The behaviour of US police officers

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JoeMorgue said:
How far it[ed] needs to go is on them, not on us.

If they stop doing it after training, then training is the proper response.
If they stop doing it after punishment, then punishments is the proper response.
If they stop doing it after protests, then protests is the proper response.
If they stop doing it after riots, then riots are the proper response.
If they stop doing it after goddamn SuburbanTurkey finally gets to watch the his dreamed "I'm still not over the fact that I missed the 60s" uprising from the safety of his couch, that is the proper response.
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Can't argue with the simple logic of this other (sans the dig at ST) than to add that;

If rigorous recruitment polices and screening weed out the majority of bad apples then,

As a starting point.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I'm so sick of the goddamn parasitic meta-argument about proper response hanging over this entire discussion.

Here, let me make it simple. A society has a right to go "This behavior is no longer acceptable." At that point the moral question of how far we take it is on the people COMMITING THE UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR not the people demanding the behavior stop.
What the proper response to Law Enforcement's at this point bafflingly total inability to not accidently, on purpose, or accidently on purpose kill black people while arresting them is whatever it takes to make them stop doing that and that's a question you need to be asking THEM, not us.

How far that needs to go is on them, not on us.

If they stop doing it after training, then training is the proper response.
If they stop doing it after punishment, then punishments is the proper response.
If they stop doing it after protests, then protests is the proper response.
If they stop doing it after riots, then riots are the proper response.
If they stop doing it after goddamn SuburbanTurkey finally gets to watch the his dreamed "I'm still not over the fact that I missed the 60s" uprising from the safety of his couch, that is the proper response.
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Could not agree more with the highlighted.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Here, let me make it simple. A society has a right to go "This behavior is no longer acceptable." At that point the moral question of how far we take it is on the people COMMITING THE UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR not the people demanding the behavior stop.
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Taken in isolation, this paragraph could be an argument that police brutality against criminals is acceptable.
 
Ziggurat said:
Taken in isolation, this paragraph could be an argument that police brutality against criminals is acceptable.
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Yes which why people arguing in honesty and not trolling don't intentionally take things in isolation and go "Lookit here! Lookit here! Lookit what this looks like in isolation!"

I'm glad we clarified that. Next we can move on to shapes and colors.
 
dudalb said:
This thread has become a reminder that there is a lot of stupidity on the political left.
The idea just6 letting burning and looting go on with no attempt to stop it is as stupid as anything the Trumpers have come up with.You can talk about the extent of force that should be used,but IMHO the uss of non lethal force to stop rioting is completly justiffied.
And the let them riot approach is just not practical. You will soon get vigilante action in response.
I shake my head at how ideology of any stripe, carried to exterems makes some otherwise intelligent people just plain stupid.
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Don't forget that the violent mobs just need be given "space to destroy". Don't worry, the government will rebuild it so it can be burned down again.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
One week in police unions:

https://twitter.com/hamiltonnolan/status/1382171408671854595

Headlines summarized:

- Fresno union slams investigation that led to firing of cop associated with Proud Boys
- Vallejo police union president fired for sending threats to journalist
- Police union president "accidentally" shoots and kills unarmed man
- Boston PD kept secret that union president was serial child molester for decades.

Cloaking themselves in glory!
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Just like the schools, things will never get better until the public sector unions are gotten rid of. There are plenty of problems to be solved with policing in the US, but two things that have to happen before there can be any improvement is get rid of the police unions and end, or at least severely limit qualified immunity.

What's funny, in a sad sort of way, is that none of this is any kind of surprise. Reason magazine has recently been posting articles about police abuses essentially recycling headlines from decades ago calling for reforms and pointing out everything wrong with policing in the US. But it was all ignored because for a certain sect of progressivism, anything that can't be blamed on racism might as well not exist.

Anthony Timpa was killed by police in Dallas in 2016 in circumstances very similar to George Floyd, but he was a white guy, so who cares, right? If it can't be called racist, it's worthless to the progressive movement, so it might as well not have happened.
 
cmikes said:
Anthony Timpa was killed by police in Dallas in 2016 in circumstances very similar to George Floyd, but he was a white guy, so who cares, right? If it can't be called racist, it's worthless to the progressive movement, so it might as well not have happened.
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Anti-police protestors in Dallas haven't forgotten Timpa.

"I believe we all back the damn blue when we pay our tax dollars. That's not the question here," he says. "What we're saying is that we're tired of you killing us in our communities, we're tired of you putting a target on our black and brown bodies, we're tired of people like Tony Timpa dying and families having to ask the question 'Why?'"
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https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/protesters-call-for-resignation-of-dallas-police-association-president-mike-mata-11768127
 
cmikes said:
Just like the schools, things will never get better until the public sector unions are gotten rid of. There are plenty of problems to be solved with policing in the US, but two things that have to happen before there can be any improvement is get rid of the police unions and end, or at least severely limit qualified immunity.

What's funny, in a sad sort of way, is that none of this is any kind of surprise. Reason magazine has recently been posting articles about police abuses essentially recycling headlines from decades ago calling for reforms and pointing out everything wrong with policing in the US. But it was all ignored because for a certain sect of progressivism, anything that can't be blamed on racism might as well not exist.

Anthony Timpa was killed by police in Dallas in 2016 in circumstances very similar to George Floyd, but he was a white guy, so who cares, right? If it can't be called racist, it's worthless to the progressive movement, so it might as well not have happened.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a tacit admission that progressives are the only people that can get anything accomplished. If libertarians have been calling for police reform for decades, why hasn’t anything gotten done? I mean, do you need progressives to hold your hand through everything?
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yes which why people arguing in honesty and not trolling don't intentionally take things in isolation and go "Lookit here! Lookit here! Lookit what this looks like in isolation!"

I'm glad we clarified that. Next we can move on to shapes and colors.
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Alternatively, it’s a badly formed argument, and seeing it applied in another context reveals why.
 
dirtywick said:
That sounds like a tacit admission that progressives are the only people that can get anything accomplished. If libertarians have been calling for police reform for decades, why hasn’t anything gotten done? I mean, do you need progressives to hold your hand through everything?
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Well, yes, conservatives or libertarians don't control the media, government, universities, or Hollywood. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the problem gets solved, progressives can take all the credit that they want. I can't explain why police abuses aren't considered a problem until progressives can blame it on racism in order to increase their power and advance their agenda.

Let's face it, most of these abuses are taking place in areas where progressive Democrats have controlled the government for decades, so maybe that explains why the problem couldn't be solved earlier. Who cares as long as we can solve the problem?
 
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cmikes said:
Well, yes, conservatives or libertarians don't control the media, government, universities, or Hollywood. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the problem gets solved, progressives can take all the credit that they want. I can't explain why police abuses aren't considered a problem until progressives can blame it on racism in order to increase their power and advance their agenda.

Let's face it, most of these abuses are taking place in areas where progressive Democrats have controlled the government for decades, so maybe that explains why the problem couldn't be solved earlier. Who cares as long as we can solve the problem?
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I don’t think it’s true that conservatives have been completely powerless to do anything without the blessing of progressives, especially if it’s as you say, that they’ve been concerned about police brutality for decades but just couldn’t get anything done on it because of racism. But, I agree, if you’re not into finger pointing then it doesn’t matter and we can focus on who’s opposed to police reform today and not in the past. Who is that by the way?
 
dirtywick said:
I don’t think it’s true that conservatives have been completely powerless to do anything without the blessing of progressives, especially if it’s as you say, that they’ve been concerned about police brutality for decades but just couldn’t get anything done on it because of racism. But, I agree, if you’re not into finger pointing then it doesn’t matter and we can focus on who’s opposed to police reform today and not in the past. Who is that by the way?
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I don't know of anyone that's opposed to police reform today other than the Democrats that control the big city police unions and governments, who often work hand in hand to muffle and dilute any reforms that are called for.

There's certainly disagreements, on the left and right, about what kind of reforms are needed and what kind of reforms would be effective, but I don't know of anyone other than the unions that say everything's fine and nothing needs to be done.
 
Some good news...

(CNN) - A Black police officer in Buffalo, New York, who was fired in 2008 for intervening when a White colleague employed a chokehold will be given back pay and a pension, a New York judge ruled.

The officer, Cariol Horne, was fired following a 2006 incident in which she tried to stop an officer from using a chokehold on a handcuffed suspect. Horne served on the Buffalo police force for 19 of the 20 years required to receive a pension.
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CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/14/us/buffalo-officer-reinstated-trnd/index.html
 
cmikes said:
Well, yes, conservatives or libertarians don't control the media, government, universities, or Hollywood. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the problem gets solved, progressives can take all the credit that they want. I can't explain why police abuses aren't considered a problem until progressives can blame it on racism in order to increase their power and advance their agenda.

Let's face it, most of these abuses are taking place in areas where progressive Democrats have controlled the government for decades, so maybe that explains why the problem couldn't be solved earlier. Who cares as long as we can solve the problem?
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This is a bizarre world view. Not to mention the claim Democrats ran the governments where this occurred for so long is pure bull ****.

The reason cops got away with this **** for so long was because cops lied and protected each other until videos started to surface uncovering the sad reality.

News media also started paying more attention when they had that great footage for prime time TV.
 
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cmikes said:
I don't know of anyone that's opposed to police reform today other than the Democrats that control the big city police unions and governments, who often work hand in hand to muffle and dilute any reforms that are called for.

There's certainly disagreements, on the left and right, about what kind of reforms are needed and what kind of reforms would be effective, but I don't know of anyone other than the unions that say everything's fine and nothing needs to be done.
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This is a tired trope, not to mention Democrats aren't big supporters of police unions. I'm pretty sure that is one union right-wingers support wholeheartedly.
 
Yeah but the Democrats have spent the last... forever rounded off humping the leg of the very concept of "Union" without ever making the distinction, or even acknowledging the possibility, that a "bad" Union was a thing that could exist. They can't just go "Oh well there's good and bad unions we're just now acknowledging that for the first time" without it falling somewhere on the scale of overly convenient to outright self-serving."

I refuse to believe they are going to pull the gloves all the way off to fight police unions.
 
cmikes said:
Just like the schools, things will never get better until the public sector unions are gotten rid of. There are plenty of problems to be solved with policing in the US, but two things that have to happen before there can be any improvement is get rid of the police unions and end, or at least severely limit qualified immunity.

What's funny, in a sad sort of way, is that none of this is any kind of surprise. Reason magazine has recently been posting articles about police abuses essentially recycling headlines from decades ago calling for reforms and pointing out everything wrong with policing in the US. But it was all ignored because for a certain sect of progressivism, anything that can't be blamed on racism might as well not exist.

Anthony Timpa was killed by police in Dallas in 2016 in circumstances very similar to George Floyd, but he was a white guy, so who cares, right? If it can't be called racist, it's worthless to the progressive movement, so it might as well not have happened.
Click to expand...

Outside of qualified immunity, I couldn't disagree with you more. Unions protect workers whether that be in the public or private sector.

And yes, the police kill white people too.
 
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