• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

Status
Not open for further replies.
NOBODY consents to the bodies we are born with. Not a single one of us was given a choice. That choice does not exist. A kitten does not, and indeed cannot, consent to becoming a cat. An acorn is incapable of consenting to become an oak tree.

I didn't consent to stop growing at 5'2". I didn't consent to going gray. I definitely didn't consent to hot flashes and night sweats. I didn't ******* consent to a uterine fibroid that left me unable to have progeny. I didn't consent to having green eyes, and I sure as hell didn't consent to losing my near vision as I age.

NOBODY is capable of consenting to the natural passage of time.

Adding on to this... The entire argument of children not "consenting" to puberty is not even wrong. It's up there with the equally inane idea that people should be guaranteed all of the needs of continued existence by dint of having been borne. It's just a dumb and completely illogical premise.
 
Why do you say that? What happened in 1977 with the ACLU? I don't really know that particular element of history. Actually, history in terms of specific events and dates isn't really my strong subject anyway.
I promise you the answer to your questions will not be remotely on topic.
 
Absolutely. So, they should be allowed to do eerything they are able to do to end that dysphoria by treatments to make their body match what they would prefer. In the process, if that takes away the advantage they have as a result of their sex, then I have no objection to them competing in the female division, even though they still aren't truly female. Their trans identify would still be validated. They are a trans person who, although of the male sex, has affirmed their gender identity by removing one of the traits that were the result of their sex.

having removed that trait, there is no longer a barrier to participation.

Actual implentation of that policy is left as an exercise for the legislature. There are an awful lot of fine points to decide, and exact circumstances. Things that seem simple tend to get a lot more complicated when you actually try to put them into the real world, but the principle is straightforward. Treat people as who they really are. A person who undergoes feminizing medical treatment remains genetically and reproductively male, but their body no longer has the masculine traits that confer an advantage on the track or field, so affirming that transformation by allowing them to compete in the female division seems reasonable.
You have articulated a general principle, but regarding sports specifically, I'm not aware of anything that takes away the advantages of having gone through male puberty, IIRC. But that is just one particular situation, it doesn't invalidate the principle.

ETA: Some sports don't weigh on the advantages of male puberty.
 
NOBODY consents to the bodies we are born with. Not a single one of us was given a choice. That choice does not exist. A kitten does not, and indeed cannot, consent to becoming a cat. An acorn is incapable of consenting to become an oak tree.

I didn't consent to stop growing at 5'2". I didn't consent to going gray. I definitely didn't consent to hot flashes and night sweats. I didn't ******* consent to a uterine fibroid that left me unable to have progeny. I didn't consent to having green eyes, and I sure as hell didn't consent to losing my near vision as I age.

NOBODY is capable of consenting to the natural passage of time.

The entire practice of medicine is about subverting the natural progression of our bodies in order to improve the health of the patient. I don't see how prescribing hormones to trans children is meaningfully different than other medical interventions that are not controversial.
 
That would be why I limit the definition under consideration to mammals and most vertebrates.

And that would also be why I make a distinction between "sex" (actually produced gamete type at any given point in time) which is valid across all sexually reproducing species and "sexual development pathway" (SRY/androgen and the resulting phenotype) which is species-specific. Which should probably answer your other questions to me as well.
 
The entire practice of medicine is about subverting the natural progression of our bodies in order to improve the health of the patient. I don't see how prescribing hormones to trans children is meaningfully different than other medical interventions that are not controversial.
Do you consider sex between a child and an adult to be a molestation?
If both consent, why would that be?

Possibly because a child is considered to be too immature mentally to make a decision of that magnitude?
Why would anyone allow someone to tinker around with the natural physical development of a child except to correct a physical problem?
 
I don't see how prescribing hormones to trans children is meaningfully different than other medical interventions that are not controversial.
Suppose a 16-y.o. asked for a vasectomy, a fairly safe and effective procedure which has several obvious benefits. How is that meaningfully different from the same sixteen-year-old asking for, say, cosmetic orthodontic treatment?
 
Last edited:
Adding on to this... The entire argument of children not "consenting" to puberty is not even wrong. It's up there with the equally inane idea that people should be guaranteed all of the needs of continued existence by dint of having been borne. It's just a dumb and completely illogical premise.
I find the second assertion eminently sound. As soon as the means exist to make such a thing a reality, it should be implemented.
 
Sadly too many posts are nothing more than attempts to use sophistry to insult other members therefore the thread is going back onto moderated status.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
The entire practice of medicine is about subverting the natural progression of our bodies in order to improve the health of the patient. I don't see how prescribing hormones to trans children is meaningfully different than other medical interventions that are not controversial.

I think you have what the practice of medicine is about all wrong. This is not the place to get into a digression into the goals of medicine, but no source I am aware of would frame it in the way you just did. That framing seems a very dangerous way of looking at medicine. In any case, an important part of the foundation of ethical medical practice is the admonition to "do no harm."

There are real ethical problems in medicine with using treatments that are of unknown efficacy, known harms and unknown potential to harm. This is the case with puberty blockers used to treat gender dysphoria. In short, we don't really have any idea what the risk/benefit ratio is and we don't know the long-term effects of blocking puberty. In fact, there's good evidence that they are actually doing harm by affirming a condition that might very well have resolved if puberty were allowed to continue.

The current medical paradigm of Evidence Based Medicine is founded on the principle that any treatment considered must be based on the latest and best evidence. In the case of GD in youth, the latest and best evidence is that psychological counseling and treatment of the anxiety, depression, familial conflicts and other issues is the best course of treatment.
 
You have articulated a general principle, but regarding sports specifically, I'm not aware of anything that takes away the advantages of having gone through male puberty, IIRC. But that is just one particular situation, it doesn't invalidate the principle.

ETA: Some sports don't weigh on the advantages of male puberty.

I agree. Some sports leagues are trying to be inclusive by setting hormone level limits and such. I have nowhere near the qualifications required to know if they are being successful. Their goal is what I'm talking about, but I know there are a lot of issues around effective levels and safety. The specifics are way beyond my capacity to judge. The general principle, in my mind, is that if you can reduce the male advantage through treatment, and do so in a safe manner, it would be fine to allow males to play in female leagues. I will leave it to the sports leagues themselves to judge whether that's a possibility.
 
The entire practice of medicine is about subverting the natural progression of our bodies in order to improve the health of the patient. I don't see how prescribing hormones to trans children is meaningfully different than other medical interventions that are not controversial.

For one thing, we don’t understand the consequences. Seriously, that’s a giant unknown.
 
After I adopted the language of the new age for transgender issues, I posted a discussion whose conclusion was that sports leagues should be renamed "male" and "female".

Today I'm going to discuss locker rooms.

Locker rooms are actually harder than sports leagues. In the case of sports leagues, it is clear that the segregation of the leagues is as a result of sex, rather than gender. Therefore, the names should reflect that.

In the case of locker rooms, or any other area where the issue is either privacy or its close cousin, modesty, you have to first figure out where that sense of "modesty" comes from. Unfortunately, that's not as easy as we might wish. Why is it that people generally want to keep their clothes on around the opposite sex, unless of course, they are deliberately removing them in order to engage in sexual activity? And is it the opposite sex that they want to conceal their bodies from, or is it the opposite gender?
Some people think modesty is a purely social phenomenon. We only wish to remain clothed because society tells us we ought to. If that's the case, the best solution would be to get rid of segregated facilities altogether. If society is creating anxiety for people, society ought to stop.

However, there isn't a lot of demand for that, which suggests it is more than a social phenomenon. All around the world, segregation exists, except in rather specific and narrowly defined circumstances. Some societies allow more nudity around the opposite sex, or gender, than others, but there is no society anywhere where nudity of adult females in the presence of adult males, or vice versa, is considered normal. Either it doesn't happen at all, except for married couples of course, or there are strict conventions around it, either in the form of actual regulations that limit behavior to certain areas, or social conventions such as might occur among a group of friends playing strip poker.

I don't think it is a purely social phenomenon.

Human beings have a trait that makes them not quite unique among animals, but it is very rare. We copulate at times when there is no chance of fertilization. Also, in most animals, the female has obvservable physical or chemical (scent, primarily) changes that signal her fertile times, and mating behavior in males is triggered by those changes.
We aren't like that. One strategy that would work for such an animal would be to mate darned near all the time with anyone available, but we don't do that either. We tend to be at least somewhat monogamous, although often time limited. And on top of that, the females seem to be more selective about mating than the males.
In order to make all that work, from an evolutionary perspective, we have to have behavioral cues that signal mating readiness. I believe that removing clothing is one such signal. I believe that humans signal sexual availability by, among other things, taking off their clothes. I believe this behavior is instinctive.

I don't know whether it is literally instinctive, as in this is evolved behavior from 5,000 generations of clothes wearing, or if the general concept of a sexual signal is instinctive, and society consistently labels nudity as one of those signals. Either way, I think there is a deeply held feeling that nudity in the presence of potential mates is a powerful signal of sexual receptiveness. "Modesty" is primarily about avoiding sending signals that one does not want to send.

Ok, my posts sometimes get long, and I could go on for another page, but I won't. I'm sure there will be time to elaborate, so I'll cut to the chase.

The designation of a possible mate is based on sex, not gender, at least at an instinctive level and for the majority of humans. Therefore, the places where one becomes naked should be segregated by sex, not gender, in order to avoid sending the wrong signals, i.e. to appeal to the sense of modesty.

And since the segregation is based on sex, not gender, the signs should be changed to read "male" and "female".

No doubt this will not be universally accepted, but I don't have to write a book, and you don't ahve time to read one. Maybe, together, we'll write one through dialog on the subject.


(It occurs to me that one topic I missed entirely was modesty toward everyone including same sex, resulting in wishes for completely private facilities where one is exposed to no one. That's an important topic. The short issue is that would indeed be better, but might not always be an option. Later.)
 
I don't know whether it is literally instinctive, as in this is evolved behavior from 5,000 generations of clothes wearing, or if the general concept of a sexual signal is instinctive, and society consistently labels nudity as one of those signals. Either way, I think there is a deeply held feeling that nudity in the presence of potential mates is a powerful signal of sexual receptiveness. "Modesty" is primarily about avoiding sending signals that one does not want to send.
Possibly worth noting here that sexual modesty shows up of human universalsWP:

https://condor.depaul.edu/mfiddler/hyphen/humunivers.htm
 
Suppose a 16-y.o. asked for a vasectomy, a fairly safe and effective procedure which has several obvious benefits. How is that meaningfully different from the same sixteen-year-old asking for, say, cosmetic orthodontic treatment?

Why not? Supposing that the teen had been evaluated to ensure that they were of sound mind and fully understood the consequences, I don't see why a teen should not be able to take control of their own health in this way.

This is a loaded issue in the states where we have a very deranged view of sex and procreation. Even adults will often have trouble finding doctor's willing to perform sterilization surgeries on both men and women, especially if these people are unmarried and/or haven't already had children.

Suppose a 16 year old asks for an abortion, should they be allowed to get one? It's a more direct comparison I think, because pregnancy, like the effects of puberty, are of a much more urgent nature. You can no more tell a 14 year old to wait until 18 for trans affirming care than you can tell a 16 year old to defer their abortion decision. To delay is to make a medical decision.

It seems to me that there is an instinct, and perhaps not a bad one, to delay non-urgent, permanent medical decisions for children until they reach the age of maturity if possible. Sometimes these medical issues are of an time-sensitive nature that such luxuries are not possible.

Delaying trans affirming care until after 18 creates irreversible medical conditions.
 
Last edited:
:confused: On the other hand... you want to do a medical study on children where there is no control group at all,
It is not a medical study, it is treatment.

and a group of children who are unlikely to benefit from treatment at all are provided invasive hormonal and surgical treatments that leave them sterile and with permanently altered bodies while converting them away from being gay?
The puberty blockers are only prescribed to those who are likely to benefit, and the invasive hormonal and surgical treatments only to those who are likely to benefit and chose to go through with them.

As long as the children in question have access to robust mental health support, no harm is caused by them going through a natural puberty.
The robust mental health support they get think harm is caused by them going through a natural puberty, as invasive hormonal and surgical treatments are later necessary to reverse what could have been prevented.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom