[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Collin237]

It will take you 10 seconds to google James Cantor and find out about his qualifications and expertise.

Here is his webpage: http://www.jamescantor.org/

There are no 'right-wing' tropes in anything I said. Facts cannot be right-wing or left-wing, they are just facts.

Pretty unimpressive.

ETA: From his webpage and a google search, it looks like he's just another pseudo-intellectual carpetbagger.

 

[Belz...]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Yes of course, people who disagree with you are evil or stupid.

She gave no information -- none at all -- about what makes Cantor an expert.

That's not what you asked her. You asked her "Where did you get the idea that Cantor is an "expert"?" She answered with a long list of elements from her experience. None of that is a conspiracy theory.

But then you seem to want to call the man a conspiracy theorist as well.

From the extensive research I conducted into this area before forming an opinion, during which I identified the key experts in the field, along with the history and development of the theories of gender identity and gender dysphoria, the origins of gender identity ideology in postmodernist queer theory, the nature of the dispute between experts and activists, evidence of ideological interference in science (one of my main areas of academic interest), the techniques used by activists to intimidate scientists, capture policy and silence dissent, the cult-like nature of the movement etc.

 

[Belz...]

ETA: From his webpage and a google search, it looks like he's just another pseudo-intellectual carpetbagger.

A carpetbagger? Do you even know what that means and where it's from?

How about you actually explain WHY you think he's a pseudo-intellectual?

 

[Elaedith]

Incidentally, Cantor drew up what is probably the first 'Bill of Transsexual Rights'. It probably seemed radical at the time.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Elite-level sport is primarily an entertainment business. As such, it has exemptions in the same way as, say, theatre: there could/would never be regulations governing the casting of transmen in men's roles, for example.

How do elite sportspeople get into those sports and become elite in the first place?

 

[Emily's Cat]

...I'd like to see you participate in a discussion about what those rights include, and why, and how best to uphold them.

Ditto. I'd also like to see John's outline of what rights are being asked for.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. What is in the 'woke' social justice movements (including trans activism) is critical theory which is derived from Marxism, but it's been divorced from its original class context and applied to identity groups. It imbues adherents with a quasi-religious feeling of insight into the invisible systems of power and privilege which makes them more enlightened that the rest of us (therefore very appealing to narcissists). On the other hand you still have classical Marxists who are horrified by the postmodernist turn.

That helps some. It's just so very weird to me to find oddball bits of economic stuff mixed in with trans rights or with BLM.

I also find it really kind of depressing. Privilege, as a concept, actually does have value, and there are disadvantaged groups in the world. But this postmodern twist rubbed on top of it makes it into a laughingstock. And I think it ends up actually harming real progress toward true equity and justice.

 

[Sherkeu]

And, BTW, one cannot have "degrees of support" for transgender rights. One either supports transgender rights, or one does not.

That'd be like saying "I have a varying degree of support for black civil rights: I'm fine with most of it, but I'll be damned if black people will be allowed to eat in the same restaurants as me".

And yet you yourself claim that some who say "I am transgender" are NOT in fact a valid member of that group (according to the LJ rules). You do not support rights for ALL self-identified transgendered persons.

There is this valid group you seem to discount as hysterical called "females". It's really insulting. Truly and immensely insulting. Perhaps you could take note of it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well, I welcome this more considered and moderate approach.

I'd entirely agree that there's a discussion to be had around which rights should be extended to transgender people, and which should not.

I feel like I'm being gaslit here.

Identical request and argument made by one group of posters: hysterical, transphobic, overreacting, nonsense, etc.

Same thing from a different group of posters: considered and moderate and worth having a discussion about.

What is the difference between those two groups of posters... anyone have any observations to toss in here?

 

[Collin237]

Incidentally, Cantor drew up what is probably the first 'Bill of Transsexual Rights'. It probably seemed radical at the time.

So he founded the ideological campaign that he now claims is persecuting him.

Cantor is singly responsible for the worldwide tide of transphobia. If not for him, this thread wouldn't exist. And you knew this all along and didn't see fit to tell us.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And for example one of those, IMO, is the right of transgender people to use the bathroom and changing rooms which correspond to their trans gender. For a transman to be forced to use the women's facilities - and vice versa - is a pretty fundamental denial of their own sense of identity*. And I think that's the starting point. One then has to look at how that might play out in reality, and try to predict potential problems. And then try to address those problems.

Can you expand on why you believe that this should be a right?

For everyone else in the world, those spaces are segregated on the basis of sex. Can you explain why one subset of people should be granted a right to override that sex-based separation? Can you elaborate on why you believe that one group's internal and unverifiable sense of personal identity should be considered more important than observable sex-based differences that we know have an effect on people, including their feelings of vulnerability, dignity, and their exposure to non-consensual nudity?

 

[Sherkeu]

How do elite sportspeople get into those sports and become elite in the first place?

This was of interest to me as I followed the High School legal aspects in Connecticut. Most of the girls went on to compete in college sports. The 'winning' trans girls did not. They didnt give any discriminatory reasons....just decided not to continue in the sport. (In college there is a medical requirement)

Take that for what you will.

 

[Elaedith]

That helps some. It's just so very weird to me to find oddball bits of economic stuff mixed in with trans rights or with BLM.

I also find it really kind of depressing. Privilege, as a concept, actually does have value, and there are disadvantaged groups in the world. But this postmodern twist rubbed on top of it makes it into a laughingstock. And I think it ends up actually harming real progress toward true equity and justice.

Have you read anything by Helen Pluckrose? I think she explains it very well.

She also did this recent interview with Boyce.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Incidentally, Cantor drew up what is probably the first 'Bill of Transsexual Rights'. It probably seemed radical at the time.

I would say it sounds pretty reasonable and well considered... which means that at least some people would insist it's incredibly transphobic.

 

[xjx388]

See, therein lies your problem: a flat denial of the validity of transgender identity.

As I was saying......

Bull. I'm not denying the validity of the transgender identity. I'm denying the idea that this identity magically changes fundamental aspects of biology or imbues the individual with some essence that makes them "woman" or "man."

I accept that transgendered people really do identify as the other sex and that this identification causes problems for them that we need to address. I do not accept that this means that they actually become the other sex with all the physical and social implications or that we can actually address every problem the condition creates.

 

[Collin237]

I would say it sounds pretty reasonable and well considered... which means that at least some people would insist it's incredibly transphobic.

It's exactly the TRA talking points. The only difference is it's written by someone who "identifies" as a PhD.

 

[xjx388]

Pretty unimpressive.

ETA: From his webpage and a google search, it looks like he's just another pseudo-intellectual carpetbagger.

What makes Cantor pseudo-intellectual, but the researchers you agree with not?

I suspect I answered my own question . . .

 

[d4m10n]

Have you read anything by Helen Pluckrose?

I've read her book on the nature and practice of applied postmodernism. It was balanced and relatively non-polemical, all things considered.

 

[Sherkeu]

I feel like I'm being gaslit here.

Identical request and argument made by one group of posters: hysterical, transphobic, overreacting, nonsense, etc.

Same thing from a different group of posters: considered and moderate and worth having a discussion about.

What is the difference between those two groups of posters... anyone have any observations to toss in here?

Oh my...I am right with you on this. You have explained it very well, a zillion times over, with no observable change. But then someone else makes the same argument with perhaps different anatomy.
We could tell our personal stories and decades of experiences till every cow comes home. All discounted.

 

[d4m10n]

What is the difference between those two groups of posters... anyone have any observations to toss in here?

One of them actually dwells in the spaces currently under contention while the other group (mine) merely philosophizes from a safe distance.