[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Belz...]

Elite-level sport is primarily an entertainment business.

It's amazing how much things that matter to other people become unimportant when it's convenient to ideologues.

 

[Belz...]

In other words, you've developed a full-blown conspiracy theory.

An interesting attempt at a bait-and-switch.

Did you think no one would notice?

 

[theprestige]

What you may be failing to notice is that if someone, for example, expresses opinions such as:

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transwomen in women's changing rooms"

or

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transgirls in high school competing in the girls' sporting events"

or

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transwomen being eligible for women's quotas"


..... then those opinions are, I'm afraid, effectively transphobic in nature (in spite of the overt declarations of support up front).


And, BTW, one cannot have "degrees of support" for transgender rights. One either supports transgender rights, or one does not.

That'd be like saying "I have a varying degree of support for black civil rights: I'm fine with most of it, but I'll be damned if black people will be allowed to eat in the same restaurants as me".

I fully support transgender rights.

I just don't support some things you seem to think are transgender rights, that I do not.

Instead of falsely claiming that I don't support transgender rights, I'd like to see you participate in a discussion about what those rights include, and why, and how best to uphold them.

 

[LondonJohn]

Well I wanted a clear piece of evidence that you are an extremist, there it is.

Thanks.

Can one have "degrees of support" for black civil rights?

(You're welcome)

 

[LondonJohn]

It's amazing how much things that matter to other people become unimportant when it's convenient to ideologues.

So do you think that transgender rights should extend to, say, quotas for transmen cast in men's roles in Broadway theatre productions?

 

[Belz...]

Can one have "degrees of support" for black civil rights?

(You're welcome)

I absolutely love how you always think you have the win, no matter what you say. You're never actually interested in what other people have to say.

The answer to your question is "yes, absolutely." All you have to do is agree that some rights should be had and others not, or that some things are rigths and others not.

You're welcome, although I know you will never even consider learning from someone else than yourself.

 

[theprestige]

That'd be like saying "I have a varying degree of support for black civil rights: I'm fine with most of it, but I'll be damned if black people will be allowed to eat in the same restaurants as me".

Not really.

It'd be a lot more like saying, "I fully support black civil rights, but I'll be damned if black people will be promoted because of the color of their skin rather of the contents of their resume."

Because, guess what: getting promoted because of your race or ethnicity rather than your merit is not a right that anyone, of any race, should have.

Transpeople have the same rights as everyone else, regardless of their gender self-identity? Agreed without question. Say no more. We're on the exact same page.

Transpeople have certain special rights because of their gender self-identity? We'll need to talk about what rights, specifically, and why. But you refuse to talk about this at all.

 

[Collin237]

An interesting attempt at a bait-and-switch.

Did you think no one would notice?

WTF does that even mean?

 

[Elaedith]

This is one (among many) things that seriously baffles me. There's been a strange thread of marxism thrown in to all sorts of social justice movements, where I just can't figure out what it's doing there. It's like people supporting marxism are just trying to throw it at everything and see if it sticks?

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. What is in the 'woke' social justice movements (including trans activism) is critical theory which is derived from Marxism, but it's been divorced from its original class context and applied to identity groups. It imbues adherents with a quasi-religious feeling of insight into the invisible systems of power and privilege which makes them more enlightened that the rest of us (therefore very appealing to narcissists). On the other hand you still have classical Marxists who are horrified by the postmodernist turn.

 

[Belz...]

So do you think that transgender rights should extend to, say, quotas for transmen cast in men's roles in Broadway theatre productions?

I don't think employment is a right.

I'll throw one back at you: do you think that it's discriminatory to look only for white men when casting Julius Caesar for a Shakespeare's play?

 

[Belz...]

WTF does that even mean?

Come on. You asked Elaedith how she(?) knows he's an expert and from her answer you gleaned a low-hanging fruit and you pivoted to accusing her of being a conspiracy theorist.

Or did you not even notice yourself?

 

[Paul2]

What you may be failing to notice is that if someone, for example, expresses opinions such as:

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transwomen in women's changing rooms"

or

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transgirls in high school competing in the girls' sporting events"

or

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transwomen being eligible for women's quotas"


..... then those opinions are, I'm afraid, effectively transphobic in nature (in spite of the overt declarations of support up front).


And, BTW, one cannot have "degrees of support" for transgender rights. One either supports transgender rights, or one does not.

That'd be like saying "I have a varying degree of support for black civil rights: I'm fine with most of it, but I'll be damned if black people will be allowed to eat in the same restaurants as me".

I'm in favor of free speech, but you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

I'm in favor of voting rights, but the polls close at 8 pm.

I believe in the rights to bear arms, but you can't own a tank.

I'm in favor of the right to buy alcohol, but only if you're old enough.

Rights can properly be restricted. Rights are not necessarily absolute.

[hat tip to Meadmaker]

 

[Belz...]

On the other hand you still have classical Marxists who are horrified by the postmodernist turn.

Well, it's their turn. We've been terrified by marxism for well over a hundred years.

 

[LondonJohn]

I fully support transgender rights.

I just don't support some things you seem to think are transgender rights, that I do not.

Instead of falsely claiming that I don't support transgender rights, I'd like to see you participate in a discussion about what those rights include, and why, and how best to uphold them.

Well, I welcome this more considered and moderate approach.

I'd entirely agree that there's a discussion to be had around which rights should be extended to transgender people, and which should not.

But there are some, IMO, which are so fundamental to the concept of gender identity, that - once one accepts that transgender identity is real and valid - they ought, in principle, be a shoe-in.

And for example one of those, IMO, is the right of transgender people to use the bathroom and changing rooms which correspond to their trans gender. For a transman to be forced to use the women's facilities - and vice versa - is a pretty fundamental denial of their own sense of identity*. And I think that's the starting point. One then has to look at how that might play out in reality, and try to predict potential problems. And then try to address those problems.

I'd also add that "my" opinion is not just me sticking my finger up into the wind: it's also in keeping with expert guidance on issues such as these.


* And incidentally, and as has been brought up already in this thread, fresh problems arise even if one were to force transmen to use women's facilities (and vice versa).

 

[xjx388]

What you may be failing to notice is that if someone, for example, expresses opinions such as:

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transwomen in women's changing rooms"

or

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transgirls in high school competing in the girls' sporting events"

or

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transwomen being eligible for women's quotas"


..... then those opinions are, I'm afraid, effectively transphobic in nature (in spite of the overt declarations of support up front).


And, BTW, one cannot have "degrees of support" for transgender rights. One either supports transgender rights, or one does not.

That'd be like saying "I have a varying degree of support for black civil rights: I'm fine with most of it, but I'll be damned if black people will be allowed to eat in the same restaurants as me".

Absolutely ridiculous.

I am all for transgender rights. They, like racial minorities, should have the same rights as anyone else, just not extra rights that others don't have.

I can't decide to use women's changing rooms.
I can't decide to compete in girls sports.
I don't count toward's women's quotas.

You know why? I'm not a woman. Neither is the biological male who really, really believes they are a woman. So effectively, you are giving certain biological males rights that other biological males don't have.

But as far as granting rights goes there's some areas where I can compromise. Changing rooms, for example, I'm willing to say that a MTF fully-transitioned person who no longer has a penis should have access to women's changing rooms. But no biological male, fully-transitioned to female or not, should compete in female sports simply because of the disparity in strength, dexterity and other compenents of athletic prowess. The women's quotas thing is a little more wiggly-roomy; there's a social/experiential element to that kind of stuff that I haven't made my mind up about.

 

[Collin237]

Come on. You asked Elaedith how she(?) knows he's an expert and from her answer you gleaned a low-hanging fruit and you pivoted to accusing her of being a conspiracy theorist.

Or did you not even notice yourself?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? She gave no information -- none at all -- about what makes Cantor an expert. All she did was brag about having done research, with a lot of right-wing tropes thrown in.

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm in favor of free speech, but you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

I'm in favor of voting rights, but the polls close at 8 pm.

I believe in the rights to bear arms, but you can't own a tank.

I'm in favor of the right to buy alcohol, but only if you're old enough.

Rights can properly be restricted. Rights are not necessarily absolute.

[hat tip to Meadmaker]

I agree. But those are all different from civil rights issues.

I'd ask yet again: is it possible to have "degrees of support" for black civil rights? Yes or no?

"I mainly support black civil rights, but I'm totally dead set against the idea of black men using the same toilet stalls as me at the ball game."

 

[LondonJohn]

Absolutely ridiculous.

I am all for transgender rights. They, like racial minorities, should have the same rights as anyone else, just not extra rights that others don't have.

I can't decide to use women's changing rooms.
I can't decide to compete in girls sports.
I don't count toward's women's quotas.

You know why? I'm not a woman. Neither is the biological male who really, really believes they are a woman. So effectively, you are giving certain biological males rights that other biological males don't have.

But as far as granting rights goes there's some areas where I can compromise. Changing rooms, for example, I'm willing to say that a MTF fully-transitioned person who no longer has a penis should have access to women's changing rooms. But no biological male, fully-transitioned to female or not, should compete in female sports simply because of the disparity in strength, dexterity and other compenents of athletic prowess. The women's quotas thing is a little more wiggly-roomy; there's a social/experiential element to that kind of stuff that I haven't made my mind up about.

See, therein lies your problem: a flat denial of the validity of transgender identity. With a little light mocking thrown in for good measure.

As I was saying......

 

[Elaedith]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? She gave no information -- none at all -- about what makes Cantor an expert. All she did was brag about having done research, with a lot of right-wing tropes thrown in.

It will take you 10 seconds to google James Cantor and find out about his qualifications and expertise.

Here is his webpage: http://www.jamescantor.org/

There are no 'right-wing' tropes in anything I said. Facts cannot be right-wing or left-wing, they are just facts.

 

[Paul2]

I agree. But those are all different from civil rights issues.

I'd ask yet again: is it possible to have "degrees of support" for black civil rights? Yes or no?

"I mainly support black civil rights, but I'm totally dead set against the idea of black men using the same toilet stalls as me at the ball game."

I would call freedom of speech a civil rights issue, but maybe that depends on how we define civil rights.

I think we both agree that there are some rights that should not be limited and there are some that can be limited. What are the characteristics or the nature of one right that allows for it to be properly limited and what are the characteristics of other rights that don't permit limitation?

Perhaps you'll say that civil rights should not be limited, under a certain definition of civil rights. And my next question would be, why?

I hope you don't take that question as a challenge, I'm working my way through this issue and I don't have the final answer, or at least I don't know it yet.