[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[ponderingturtle]

I'm against someone assigned observed male at birth wearing a dress before puberty as a trans-affirming therapy, as that would be transitioning. Kids wearing dresses as a smashing of gender stereotypes about dresses is fine by me. Have at it!

Send them for reparative therapy either way. That is the only accepted treatment for dysphoria under that law.

 

[sarge]

Just upthread, sarge stipulated that we're all trans-rights activists, in response to my saying I've reversed my stance on trans rights. She is basically correct.
.

Sarge is a he. And a male.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's a very good point.

Do we know what the proportion of such detransitioners is?

There's not a lot of good data on detransition. The impression I get is that people who detransition face a lot of negative responses from people in the trans community, and also don't fit back in with other people, and they tend to not get coverage. There's at least some portion of the trans advocates that actively disparage coverage and discussion of detransitioning, and who view detransitioners as "traitors" of a sort.

Lacking solid data, my impression is that most detransitioners are female. They identified as transmen for some time, then desisted from that identity.

Here are some links:
https://www.transgendertrend.com/detransition/
https://guideonragingstars.tumblr.com/post/149877706175/female-detransition-and-reidentification-survey
https://post-trans.com/
https://www.detransadv.com/

This is anecdotes and stories, but it highlights some of the common themes that I've seen:
The Detransitioners by Laura Dodsworth

I had an extreme envy of men and an extreme resentment of myself. I just thought men were better. In a way I had my own strange kind of sexism.
...
I started reading more about feminism and understanding things differently. It’s hard to grow up and not really see other masculine lesbian women. I had put the problem inside myself, when actually it is with how the outside world sees women who don’t conform to feminine norms. I just wanted to be human, neutral, myself. I felt as if the only way I could be myself was to look like a guy.
...
My breasts started growing when I was nine years old. I had to wear bras, I wasn’t allowed to run around naked in the garden anymore, although my two brothers could. My hips grew, and I didn’t fit on the swing in the playground anymore. Men started looking at my breasts. I experienced a lot of catcalling and men tried to grab me on the streets. My breasts felt like sexy signs I was carrying in front of me that I couldn’t get rid of.
...
I see the cause of my transition as being my mother, grandmother and father. My brother was idolised by my mother and grandmother. He was the golden child who could do no wrong, their “little darling”. I was a “little heathen” and a “hussy”; I could do nothing right. My mother was always angry with me and very critical. I spent most of my childhood saying sorry and pleading with her. I hated my body from when I was a child. I thought I was fat. I hated the frilly dresses my mother would put me in. I wanted to wear the same clothes as my brother and have the same haircut as him, but she wouldn’t let me. My body felt like a prison when puberty started. I thought my periods were like a nightmare, it seemed so wrong to have blood coming out of my body.

When I was 15 my father got in touch with us after many years. I was pleased to hear from him. He would take my brother and me out and he bought us things — a stereo, clothes — and gave us money. He seemed like the perfect father. He invited us to stay at his house and my mother didn’t want us to go, but wouldn’t say why not. Of course I went anyway.

The first evening he raped me. He came in the next morning and he did it again. Afterwards I think I sat in the lavatory for about an hour. It’s like I didn’t know where I was.
...
I identified as a man because I wanted people to see me as a person, not as a sexual object. I saw a man as a person and a woman as a sexual object. Perhaps if there were no sexism and homophobia in the world, no one would need to change their body?
...
I knew I didn’t feel attracted to boys sexually and it was obvious I felt different to other girls. I went online and found the term “asexual” on Tumblr. At school we’d been taught about being gay, but I don’t remember the term lesbian ever coming up. I thought that if I didn’t fancy boys then I must be asexual.
-
I’ve accepted that I like women. I get that there are people with serious gender dysphoria, but I think the biggest reason that women are transitioning is because they can’t accept they are lesbians.

There's a recurrent theme from females who detransition. They don't actual *want* to be male, they don't innately view themselves as male... they want to *escape* being female. They want to avoid the way they are treated as females, the persistent sexualization, the loss of freedom and agency that happens when we start growing breasts, and the constant feel of being scrutinized for your exterior presence. This seems to be especially strong among females who are homosexual.

That's a big part of why there's been a lot of concern popping up about the massive rise in the number of young female humans showing up at gender clinics and identifying as trans. To me, it's part of a bigger issue in society, a reflection of the abundant sexism that we female humans face day to day, but which most male humans are unaware of and fairly blind to. It's the constant wearing risk of sexual assault, it's the fact that I don't know a single female human over the age of 16 who has NOT been sexually assaulted in some way, even if most of them didn't cause significant bodily harm.

But I'm stubborn and old. I don't think that transitioning out of being a female is a good answer. I think that taking it to the streets and getting other people - especially male people - to hear us, hear our stories, and take us seriously is a much better solution.

 

[Collin237]

...was that sarcasm?

Not really. When I said it in Volume 5, I was referring to a document that actually did sound like a plant from the other side.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Depends what you mean by 'count'. They're still their original sex but have gone through transition. I think that deserves the courtesy of getting the desired pronoun change, for instance.

I think the vast majority of female humans are willing to treat fully transitioned transwomen as being "one of us" in the vast majority of cases. There may be some occasions where that doesn't hold true, but every full transsexual I've ever interacted with has been fully accepted by females.

 

[Belz...]

I'd say gender is a social construct loosely influenced by binary biological reality.

Loosely? Even if we accept the newer definition it seems to me like gender is entirely extrapolated from that reality.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Loosely? Even if we accept the newer definition it seems to me like gender is entirely extrapolated from that reality.

More or less so do I, I'm just trying to appease the "Find the exception and worship it as your one True God" people.

Like if you have 1/2 of the population that tends to be stronger the idea that that half of the population might be more interested in sports isn't crazy and insane.

But it's just that, vague tendencies that people shouldn't be forced to follow but don't have to be "fixed" just because they exist.

So, to hopefully clarify it fairly well, the stupid ******* Alpha Male dad who takes his son aside and goes "Ain't no boy of mine taking ballet, you're playing football like real men do" can **** right off, but so can the "OMG men's sports make more money then women's sports, we have to fix that!" argument.

Males and females should be free, without harassments or prejudice, to do whatever they want (within the context we're talking) but if simple statistical clustering happens it's not necessarily a sign of something nefarious.

 

[ponderingturtle]

So, to hopefully clarify it fairly well, the stupid ******* Alpha Male dad who takes his son aside and goes "Ain't no boy of mine taking ballet, you're playing football like real men do" can **** right off, but so can the "OMG men's sports make more money then women's sports, we have to fix that!" argument.

Yep as the US soccer teams show it doesn't matter how much money you raise or how successful you are, a mediocre man will be better paid than an exceptional woman as it should be.

 

[Belz...]

There's not a lot of good data on detransition. The impression I get is that people who detransition face a lot of negative responses from people in the trans community, and also don't fit back in with other people, and they tend to not get coverage. There's at least some portion of the trans advocates that actively disparage coverage and discussion of detransitioning, and who view detransitioners as "traitors" of a sort.

Sounds like they are detransphobic!

There's a recurrent theme from females who detransition. They don't actual *want* to be male, they don't innately view themselves as male... they want to *escape* being female. They want to avoid the way they are treated as females, the persistent sexualization, the loss of freedom and agency that happens when we start growing breasts, and the constant feel of being scrutinized for your exterior presence. This seems to be especially strong among females who are homosexual.

Huh, so once again this subset of the issue is due to male behaviour going unchecked. Thanks for the info, but you depressed me again today. :/

 

[JoeMorgue]

Yep as the US soccer teams show it doesn't matter how much money you raise or how successful you are, a mediocre man will be better paid than an exceptional woman as it should be.

If more people pay to watch the mediocre man kick the ball around the field, sure.

 

[ponderingturtle]

If more people pay to watch the mediocre man kick the ball around the field, sure.

But they don't, the women's team earns more money. But they are still worth less as women of course. To get out of the equal rights ruling the court ruled that being a member of the women's team is not substantially similar to being a member of the men's team so compensation as a comparison to revenue is right out.

 

[LondonJohn]

Except it actually doesn't. Sure there are problems with trans people having to be more performatively gendered to get accepted, but hey at least you get to totally ignore the pain of their dysphoria and laugh at them for it.

Ain't that the case.

I also enjoy hearing people state what they consider transgender identity to be (and what they consider it not to be). It's almost as if they know better than the community of psychiatrists, psychologists, sociologists and medics, who've actually got the vast amounts of experience and expertise to enable them to make a properly-informed decision about what they consider transgender identity and gender dysphoria to be. And what they consider those things not to be.

But maybe I'm wrong: maybe I should be more influenced on all of this by a small group of randoms on the interwebz... as I am by the vast numbers of vastly experienced experts, who've spent their careers working with - and aiming to understand - transgender people.

Yeah, maybe that makes sense......

 

[ponderingturtle]

Ain't that the case.

I also enjoy hearing people state what they consider transgender identity to be (and what they consider it not to be). It's almost as if they know better than the community of psychiatrists, psychologists, sociologists and medics, who've actually got the vast amounts of experience and expertise to enable them to make a properly-informed decision about what they consider transgender identity and gender dysphoria to be. And what they consider those things not to be.

But maybe I'm wrong: maybe I should be more influenced on all of this by a small group of randoms on the interwebz... as I am by the vast numbers of vastly experienced experts, who've spent their careers working with - and aiming to understand - transgender people.

Yeah, maybe that makes sense......

And never listen to the actual people experiencing this, that is right out.

 

[theprestige]

Sarge is a he. And a male.

Oh, dang! I could have sworn... Well, obviously I was mistaken. I apologize.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Media's 'detransition' narrative is fueling misconceptions, trans advocates say
They say the current narrative makes "transition regret" seem more common than it is and contributes to misconceptions about transgender people in general.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/media-s-detransition-narrative-fueling-misconceptions-trans-advocates-say-n1102686

Media coverage, especially in the UK, make detransitioning or transition regret seem much more common than it actually is.

 

[LondonJohn]

There are many kinds of dysphoria, what treatments are best are dependent on what is the nature of the dysphoria. But of course it is easier to laugh at the pain of say someone who experiances pain for not having their wings as physical objects than try to give them any empathy.

It is like those silly homosexuals thinking they can breed with someone of the same sex!! The height of madness that is, they need to simply accept reality. Biology is clear on this.

You're entirely correct of course. But there's a curious dance going on within this thread, in which people who are ideologically opposed to the very concept of transgender identity as a valid condition.... contort themselves in attacks around the edges, while at the same time being afraid to admit their core belief in transphobia.

Logic and reason don't count for much round here, it appears. Neither does sarcasm: apparently the "rule" in this thread is that it signals one out to be someone who is not debating in good faith. So heaven help you for that last paragraph of yours

 

[Belz...]

Except it actually doesn't. Sure there are problems with trans people having to be more performatively gendered to get accepted, but hey at least you get to totally ignore the pain of their dysphoria and laugh at them for it.

So you're saying that self-identification is insufficient to establish their trans identity?

Gee, I hope you're not also in favour of bullying them until they commit suicide, because I heard those were essentially one and the same. Wonder who told me something like that?

 

[Meadmaker]

I think it's a swing to far for NC, but I also think that Canada's approach is downright stupid.

I had the same thought about the connection to the Canadian law. I heard a lot about it and it was a big right wing talking point, so naturally, they overcompensate. I think meeting in the middle would be a good idea, but that doesn't seem to be a thing right now.

 

[ponderingturtle]

So you're saying that self-identification is insufficient to establish their trans identity?

Yes.

 

[Paul2]

Not even close. Few would be brave enough to say this, but:

Everyone agrees that race is a social construct.Everyone (unless they're being sarcastic) agrees that gender is not analogous to race.

So what's the difference between race and gender? The easiest answer is that gender is not a social construct. The side that says that takes the short road. The other side is on the long road of arguing that that's not the best answer.

Probably deserves its own thread, if it doesn't already exist, but here's a liberal, atheist biologist who disagrees:

. . . while there are no finite and strongly genetically demarcated human “races”, there are meaningful and statistically diagnostic differences between populations, ethnic groups, or whatever you want to call them. This is in opposition to the common Left-wing view that races are purely “social constructs” having no biological reality.

Well, there aren’t a finite number of groups whose members are 100% genetically differentiated from other groups. But when you take all genes together, there are sufficient average frequency differences that one can discern statistical clusters that, in turn, allow you to use lots of genes to pretty much diagnose where somebody’s from and who their ancestors were. These “statistical clusters” are real, not social constructs, for they fall out regardless of the politics or biases of the investigator.

/derail