[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Belz...]

Everyone agrees that "gender" is a social construct.

I don't. I see it as a redefinition of the word. I'm not necessarily against that but I just don't see the point. "Gender roles" and so on do the trick already. Are those bad? Meh, in some cases yes, but generally I don't care much: if people think they're bad, work against them; otherwise don't. I don't have strong feelings about it either way.

 

[Dismember]

That's a very good point.

Do we know what the proportion of such detransitioners is?

I don’t, and I’m not sure accurate statistics even exist. I have an emotional aversion to trans rights activists disavowing & demeaning detransitioners and I might be overestimating their number by reading websites where they share their stories.

I guess the only thing I know is that the number is higher than zero, and it *appears* to be growing (which I suppose makes sense as the number of people identifying as trans is increasing). I try not to spend too much time on Twitter or take anything there too seriously, but there’s a small community of detransitioners there, some of whom share photos and are pretty open about their history of transitioning and then detrans-ing.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Everyone agrees that "gender" is a social construct. It's a set of expectations society has based on the person's sex. I think everyone in this thread also agrees that "gender roles" are antiquated and need to be thrown out. We further agree, mostly, that people -even kids- should be allowed to express themselves in ways that they are most comfortable with, without judgement. Let a boy wear a dress or play, wear make-up, play with feminine toys if they want to.

I'm thinking of other social roles that kids fall into. Kids can "identify" as goths, preps, jocks, etc. Some of those roles are socially normative and others aren't. We don't say those people have dysphoria and we just let them "be" those things for the most part. Most parents realize that fighting those less normative "identities" causes nothing but conflict. And for the most part, those "identites" don't really persist into adulthood; they are a phase. So a kid who wants to wear and do things that are not gender normative should just be allowed to do that.

So, thinking about it more and more, I'm having trouble with the idea of "gender dysphoria." It's not about gender at all, not really. By linking it to the idea of "gender as a social construct," I think we are putting too many people under the purview of medicine. Wanting to express themselves in whatever gender role shouldn't be any more of a problem than wanting to express themselves as a goth or whatever.

No, I think the real issue is with people who feel like they were born in the wrong body. It has nothing to do with gender roles. They were born into a male biological body, but their brain tells them they should have been born as a biological female. Call it "Biological Sex Identity Disorder." I think that issue is actually extremely rare. I guess what I'm saying is that we are medicalizing normality. It's normal for kids to try on different roles and identities and gender is no different. That's not a medical issue. The only real medical issue is when someone actually sees themselves as the opposite sex. When someone sees their genitals and they look wrong to them and they want the genitals of their "proper" sex.

Sorry, just trying to think things through . . .

I agree with this, and the highlighted part is exactly why I think some of these bills criminalizing treatment for transgender minors are stupid and wrong-headed. I strongly feel that we're medicalizing normalcy - especially the extremely natural discomfort and body-issues that females face with the onset of puberty. But there absolutely ARE people who have a mental disassociation from their sexed-body. I've met a couple of them, and my heart really goes out to them.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again I haven't seen anyone IN THIS DICUSSION arguing that someone that undergoes actual sexual transition medical procedures doesn't "count" (for lack of a better term) as the other sex.

But we've had "TRANSITIONING OR INTENDING TRANSITION IS NOT A REQUIREMENT TO BE TRANS!" screamed at us enough, but again I have absolutely no idea what the requirement to be trans is other then self declaration.

 

[Dismember]

What I would very much like to see with children expressing gender confusion or non-conformity is 1) support for their expressive preferences regarding dress and behavior along with 2) affirmation that it is perfectly acceptable for males to engage in stereotypically "girly" things and vice versa.

I'd love to see the focus shifted to bringing down gender and sex-based stereotypes... which not denying the reality of biological sex.

I agree wholeheartedly. I think the idea of telling everyone “Jonny was a boy but now she’s Jenny and she’s a girl” is more likely to do significant harm because it sets kids up with unrealistic expectations, a false understanding of material reality and reinforces the notion that as a male, Jonny mustn’t play with dolls or be nurturing or have “feminine” qualities, but as “Jenny”, those things are acceptable and expected.

And again, to refer back to detrans accounts, many of them are heartbroken and feel lied to because they’re led to believe that boys can “become” girls and girls can “become” boys in a fundamental, physical sense. They find out the hard way that it’s not the truth, and then they have to try to pick up the pieces socially, and often physically if there’s hormones and/or surgery involved.

 

[ponderingturtle]

If you have to apply two entire changes to what I wrote in order to make it transphobic, then it probably wasn't transphobic to begin with.

How about you address what I actually wrote rather than the fictions you imagine in your mind?

That isn't that much of a change rather a rephrasing. You have to understand what prepubescent transitioning means. Clearly you are against someone assigned male at birth wearing a dress before puberty as that would be transitioning, or people listening to anything they say about what their gender is, and just going by your own assumptions.

That is exactly what not letting a prepubescent child transition means. And that is transphobic.

 

[Belz...]

Again I haven't seen anyone IN THIS DICUSSION arguing that someone that undergoes actual sexual transition medical procedures doesn't "count" (for lack of a better term) as the other sex.

Depends what you mean by 'count'. They're still their original sex but have gone through transition. I think that deserves the courtesy of getting the desired pronoun change, for instance.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That said, it's probably a pointless provision in this bill, since the teacher would be calling out a condition it would be illegal to treat regardless.

Nonsense it is fully allowed to be treated as long as that treatment is not transitioning. So they can be sent to camps to reinforce their assigned at birth gender all you want and not be in violation of this law. "Reparative Therapy" is still perfectly legal for trans and gay kids in Arkansas. So put them in a good conversion therapy boot camp is a treatment recognized by the state for gender dysphoria.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It's because you don't understand what "transphobic" means. It doesn't mean "afraid of trans people" or "against trans people" or any variation thereof. It means "disagrees with trans activists".

Like being against gay adoption or gay marriage isn't homophobic it is disagreeing with gay activists. Nothing remotely bigoted in that.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"If you don't let people pick which race they are, you are racist."

See how stupid that sounds?

 

[Collin237]

It doesn't mean "afraid of trans people" or "against trans people" or any variation thereof.

It does too. Sarcasm is no excuse.

Many, perhaps most, trans activists are transphobic. I said that in Volume 5 and survived it. You can do that too. Don't let them intimidate you.

 

[Belz...]

It does too. Sarcasm is no excuse.

It wasn't sarcasm on my part. I'm entirely serious.

Many, perhaps most, trans activists are transphobic.

...was that sarcasm?

 

[Belz...]

"If you don't let people pick which race they are, you are racist."

See how stupid that sounds?

Transracephobic!

 

[ponderingturtle]

I agree wholeheartedly. I think the idea of telling everyone “Jonny was a boy but now she’s Jenny and she’s a girl” is more likely to do significant harm because it sets kids up with unrealistic expectations,

Does it, in what percentage of cases? In what percentage of cases is it setting up realistic expectations? What is the ratio of happily transitioned to detransitioned, and do we count those who detransition because of outside pressure find the stigma of being trans is more than they can bear relative to their dysphoria?

 

[theprestige]

I don't. I see it as a redefinition of the word. I'm not necessarily against that but I just don't see the point. "Gender roles" and so on do the trick already. Are those bad? Meh, in some cases yes, but generally I don't care much: if people think they're bad, work against them; otherwise don't. I don't have strong feelings about it either way.

Mine is a hybrid view. Gender is a social construct, but it's based on a binary biological reality.

Even if we eliminate gender norms in society like, "men aren't allowed to be effeminate", we're probably still going to have a social concept of effeminacy in men. Even if it differs from society to society and time period to time period.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'd say gender is a social construct loosely influenced by binary biological reality.

But that's always been my biggest issue with transgenderism. On the rare, vague moments it is actually defined it requires waaaaaay to much of the old gender roles to be put back on the table, just so one special subgroup can get credit for "subverting them."

 

[ponderingturtle]

"If you don't let people pick which race they are, you are racist."

See how stupid that sounds?

There are many kinds of dysphoria, what treatments are best are dependent on what is the nature of the dysphoria. But of course it is easier to laugh at the pain of say someone who experiances pain for not having their wings as physical objects than try to give them any empathy.

It is like those silly homosexuals thinking they can breed with someone of the same sex!! The height of madness that is, they need to simply accept reality. Biology is clear on this.

 

[theprestige]

you are against someone assigned male at birth wearing a dress before puberty as that would be transitioning,

I'm against someone assigned observed male at birth wearing a dress before puberty as a trans-affirming therapy, as that would be transitioning. Kids wearing dresses as a smashing of gender stereotypes about dresses is fine by me. Have at it!

 

[Collin237]

Everyone agrees that "gender" is a social construct.

Not even close. Few would be brave enough to say this, but:

Everyone agrees that race is a social construct.
Everyone (unless they're being sarcastic) agrees that gender is not analogous to race.

So what's the difference between race and gender? The easiest answer is that gender is not a social construct. The side that says that takes the short road. The other side is on the long road of arguing that that's not the best answer.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'd say gender is a social construct loosely influenced by binary biological reality.

But that's always been my biggest issue with transgenderism. On the rare, vague moments it is actually defined it requires waaaaaay to much of the old gender roles to be put back on the table, just so one special subgroup can get credit for "subverting them."

Except it actually doesn't. Sure there are problems with trans people having to be more performatively gendered to get accepted, but hey at least you get to totally ignore the pain of their dysphoria and laugh at them for it.