Jogging in Georgia while black.

[TurkeysGhost]

It depends on if you consider yourself stalked, or if it's a couple fat rednecks floundering around like the Keystone Cops.

And re: being hit: we still don't know that. There is a palm print on the truck. Not a swipe or smear, an identifiable print. Does that sound to you like the vehicle might have been stationary, to leave a clean print? I think it's a possibility, and fits better with Roddys claim that Arbery was trying to get in the truck.

We still don't know anything about this dent, or even if Arbery made it. Some incidental fibers can get on the vehicle from any incidental contact, even from trying to forcibly enter.

The evidence about being run down is completely consistent with trying to force his way in, per Roddys claim. No broken bones or even a scratch mentioned on Arbery from the alleged running over. Not a drop of blood.

Do you disagree that the evidence presented equally supports either version?

No, i don't see how the evidence equally supports either version, because your version assumes Arbery has an inexplicable motivation to enter the cab of Roddie's truck. Meanwhile, his pursuers, by their own admission, were trying to "intercept" Arbery using their vehicles, and a mild collision is a pretty easily understood escalation of this tactic as Arbery refused to comply with their unlawful order to be detained by them.

I see no reason why there would be smearing, blood, or bruising. Roddie, in concert with the McMichaels, were initially trying to illegally detain Arbery. They weren't trying to run him over, they were trying to stop him from running. A soft vehicle strike makes a lot sense.

What's occam's razor say about this? That Arbery, being chased by strangers, tried to enter Roddie's truck? Or is it much more likely that the McMicahels and Roddie, who admit attempting to intercept Arbery multiple times, decided to escalate their tactic to included a low speed side swipe.

It seems much more likely that Roddie's truck was rolling down the road at very low speed to pace Arbery's jog and attempted to knock him over or otherwise intimidate him into stopping with a nudge, leaving clothing fiber, a small dent, and a single hand print from the minor collision.

 

[Thermal]

Maybe we'll have a 10 page bicker-fest about the meaning of the word "actual".

I interpreted it as "an enthusiastic amateur" (such as Arbery). Maybe Thermal's meaning is "nationally ranked specialist middle distance athlete"

All I intended with the passing analogy was to call attention to how far and fast people move when seriously running, as in Arbery being "exhausted from running for his life". That's it. When people run hard and fast, they cover a lot of ground in a very little time.

That's it. That's all I was suggesting. Nothing more.

Others feel that there was some other subtext. Fine, I retract the comparison. Repeatedly clarified that it was not my intent to compare mile times. Cheerfully offer substitutions for 5 or 6 minutes. Hell, go with lazy boy 7 if it makes you guys happy. It doesn't matter.

The point is that Arbery had to be moving fairly slowly. If he was running hard, he would have dropped at least over a mile of total distance. Is that so outlandish a proposition?

 

[Dr. Keith]

I’m confused. Does one have to be meek to be murdered? If he did feel threatened, but decided to show no fear does that exonerate those who were hounding him?

 

[Thermal]

No, i don't see how the evidence equally supports either version, because your version assumes Arbery has an inexplicable motivation to enter the cab of Roddie's truck. Meanwhile, his pursuers, by their own admission, were trying to "intercept" Arbery using their vehicles, and a mild collision is a pretty easily understood escalation of this tactic as Arbery refused to comply with their unlawful order to be detained by them.

I see no reason why there would be smearing, blood, or bruising. Roddie, in concert with the McMichaels, were initially trying to illegally detain Arbery. They weren't trying to run him over, they were trying to stop him from running. A soft vehicle strike makes a lot sense.

What's occam's razor say about this? That Arbery, being chased by strangers, tried to enter Roddie's truck? Or is it much more likely that the McMicahels and Roddie, who admit attempting to intercept Arbery multiple times, decided to escalate their tactic to included a low speed side swipe.

It seems much more likely that Roddie's truck was rolling down the road at very low speed to pace Arbery's jog and attempted to knock him over or otherwise intimidate him into stopping with a nudge, leaving clothing fiber, a small dent, and a single hand print from the minor collision.

Experiment: go out to the nearest vehicle. Preferably a pickup truck. Try to dent the ******* thing by gently nudging it. Then throw your body weight against it. Get a little running start and body slam it. Let me know how the dents look. I bet you can't raise a small one without kicking it, and damned hard and focused at that.

 

[Thermal]

I’m confused. Does one have to be meek to be murdered? If he did feel threatened, but decided to show no fear does that exonerate those who were hounding him?

No, it's more of a subtext thing. I have no problem picturing a strong and confident black man who was not intimidated by some chubby clowns. Others here couldn't possibly give him that credit. Just not possible.

 

[Belz...]

I’m confused. Does one have to be meek to be murdered? If he did feel threatened, but decided to show no fear does that exonerate those who were hounding him?

Depends. Was he black?

 

[catsmate]

Yet another lie. Citing the popular Remington 870, with the shortest off-the-shelf barrel to skew the results as far in your favor as we can: Overall Length, 38 1/2".

And yet Remington sell a folding-stock 870 that's about 74cm long with the stock folded.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Experiment: go out to the nearest vehicle. Preferably a pickup truck. Try to dent the ******* thing by gently nudging it. Then throw your body weight against it. Get a little running start and body slam it. Let me know how the dents look. I bet you can't raise a small one without kicking it, and damned hard and focused at that.

Considering I personally had to explain to my mother why her car door had a dent from an errant basketball, it's really not that hard to ding a car.

Especially if the impact is to a long, mostly flat panel, say like the side of a pickup truck along the bed, as was the case in Bryan's truck.

The Glynn County Police Department that day actually photograph the truck, you can see some palm prints, appear to be swipes, on the rear driver’s side door. His truck is a four-door truck, your honor. So there’s some swipe marks and palm prints there. There is also white, cotton fibers along the truck bed where the bed liner lips over the bed of the truck, there’s a little bit of plastic of that bed liner, there is white, cotton fibers along it, which Mr. Arbery during this pursuit and incident was wearing a white cotton shirt. There was also a dent directly below those white, cotton fibers. And that then we attributed to contact with Mr. Arbery because of its location.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/arkansas-lawmakers-enact-transgender-youth-treatment-ban-n1263197

The fibers from Arbery's shirt were found in the seam along the top of the truck bed. And multiple palm prints on the nearby rear door. Hard to see how Arbery's shirt fibers get near the lip of the truck bed unless he deliberately shoulder checked the truck, or Roddie swerved the truck into him.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This transcript includes discussion of video footage and statements from the killers that I don't believe were made public prior. It's too long to quote in length, but it shows in detail the beats of the chase, with Arbery making several evasive moves and changes in route to avoid the two trucks that were eventually in pursuit.

It's hard to read this as Arbery being "aggressive" or "toying" with his pursuers.

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/ahmaud-arbery-trial-transcript-june-4-preliminary-hearings

 

[catsmate]

Considering I personally had to explain to my mother why her car door had a dent from an errant basketball, it's really not that hard to ding a car.

Especially if the impact is to a long, mostly flat panel, say like the side of a pickup truck along the bed, as was the case in Bryan's truck.

Damn right. I remember when I worked in a place that was overran by hares and the damage one of those did in the car park was noticeable.

 

[The Don]

All I intended with the passing analogy was to call attention to how far and fast people move when seriously running, as in Arbery being "exhausted from running for his life". That's it. When people run hard and fast, they cover a lot of ground in a very little time.

Do they ? Do they really ?

In my experience people running hard and fast cover comparatively little ground in very little time. Covering a lot of ground in a very little time requires good pacing.

You can be exhausted from running for your life without covering a huge distance from your starting point if:

• You're exhausted from the stress of thinking you're about to be killed
• You move in a series of short maximum effort sprints rather than in a measured effort to cover the maximum distance in the time you have
• You don't move consistently in the same direction, instead darting around to evade the pickup trucks with armed people who are trying to kill you

Professional midfield football (soccer) players are great athletes with both speed and stamina and yet over the course of a 90+ minute match never get more than 100 yards from where they started the game despite covering 4, 5 or 6 miles in total. That's a pretty low average pace too and yet many finish the game exhausted.

That's it. That's all I was suggesting. Nothing more.

You were working backwards from your conclusion - that Arbery deliberately sought out the confrontation in order to grab the weapon. You refuse to even consider the possibility that he spent the last 8 minutes of his life, terrified for his life attempting to evade armed people in pickups who were hunting him down.

Under those circumstances he didn't have the opportunity to do a few stretches, synch his Garmin with GPS, calculate the speed he needed to run and then pick the ideal piece of flat road to set his mile PB on.

Others feel that there was some other subtext. Fine, I retract the comparison. Repeatedly clarified that it was not my intent to compare mile times. Cheerfully offer substitutions for 5 or 6 minutes. Hell, go with lazy boy 7 if it makes you guys happy. It doesn't matter.

If you think a road mile in 7 minutes is a "lazy boy" performance then I think you have something to learn. By most people's standards I run a *lot* and by most people's standards I'm decently quick (I typically finish in the top 25% of distance races I compete in. Most people in those races are members of running clubs). I'd be pressed to run a 7 minute mile unless I specifically set out to do it, I had decent pacing information and I wasn't also having to evade armed yahoos in pickups.

The point is that Arbery had to be moving fairly slowly. If he was running hard, he would have dropped at least over a mile of total distance. Is that so outlandish a proposition?

If he was running hard he would at best have covered a few hundred yards and been exhausted.

IMO there's no way he could have covered a mile unless he knew he was running for 8 minutes as opposed to 30 seconds, was able to pace his run, was able to run on road or on another excellent running surface, wasn't already fatigued from any previous exercise that day and didn't have any distractions such as pickup trucks full of people trying to kill him.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Arbery and his killers founds themselves in a slow speed stalemate, so to speak. Arbery has really no chance of evading the trucks on foot, but neither can these truck mounted murderers apprehend him so long as he keeps running. The transcript shows that the McMichaels tried to apprehend him once on foot, but Arbery simply would not stop.

So you have a stalemate. Arbery on foot, running too fast to be apprehended by our lard-assed murderers, but too slow to outpace their trucks. And the killers broke the stalemate with the only option (besides ******* off and going home) they had left, the use of violence to force Arbery to stop.

So what do you do when a man on foot won't stop? You cut them off. and if that doesn't work, you hit them. and if that deosn't work, you stand in the road with a shotgun. and if that doesn't work, you shoot him.

It seems pretty clear that this slow speed chase was simply the killers escalating their behavior as Arbery refused to be cowed by their antics.

 

[Thermal]

Depends. Was he black?

More importantly, what was his mile time?

 

[Thermal]

Arbery and his killers founds themselves in a slow speed stalemate, so to speak. Arbery has really no chance of evading the trucks on foot, but neither can these truck mounted murderers apprehend him so long as he keeps running. The transcript shows that the McMichaels tried to apprehend him once on foot, but Arbery simply would not stop.

So you have a stalemate. Arbery on foot, running too fast to be apprehended by our lard-assed murderes, but too slow to outpace their trucks. And the killers broke the stalemate with the only option (besides ******* off and going home) they had left, the use of violence to force Arbery to stop.

So what do you do when a man on foot won't stop? You cut them off. and if that doesn't work, you hit them. and if that deosn't work, you stand in the road with a shotgun. and if that doesn't work, you shoot him.

It seems pretty clear that this slow speed chase was simply the killers escalating their behavior as Arbery refused to be cowed by their antics.

This can't be right.

Because you're basically describing my proposition, right down to the slow speed stalemate.

 

[Babbylonian]

Racists gotta racist.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This can't be right.

Because you're basically describing my proposition, right down to the slow speed stalemate.

I fail to see how this shows Arbery "toying" with them, or being "aggressive" by any stretch of the imagination. There was nothing casual about Arbery's evasion of these killers.

 

[Thermal]

Do they ? Do they really ?

In my experience people running hard and fast cover comparatively little ground in very little time. Covering a lot of ground in a very little time requires good pacing.

You can be exhausted from running for your life without covering a huge distance from your starting point if:

• You're exhausted from the stress of thinking you're about to be killed
• You move in a series of short maximum effort sprints rather than in a measured effort to cover the maximum distance in the time you have
• You don't move consistently in the same direction, instead darting around to evade the pickup trucks with armed people who are trying to kill you

Professional midfield football (soccer) players are great athletes with both speed and stamina and yet over the course of a 90+ minute match never get more than 100 yards from where they started the game despite] covering 4, 5 or 6 miles in total. That's a pretty low average pace too and yet many finish the game exhausted.

That's my point. He didn't cover miles. Or one. Or a half. He was well within the output range for a fit athlete to not break a sweat.

You were working backwards from your conclusion - that Arbery deliberately sought out the confrontation in order to grab the weapon. You refuse to even consider the possibility that he spent the last 8 minutes of his life, terrified for his life attempting to evade armed people in pickups who were hunting him down.

Under those circumstances he didn't have the opportunity to do a few stretches, synch his Garmin with GPS, calculate the speed he needed to run and then pick the ideal piece of flat road to set his mile PB on.

You're still assuming he knew they were armed and was in fear. I am not convinced this was the case, at least until the end.

If you think a road mile in 7 minutes is a "lazy boy" performance then I think you have something to learn. By most people's standards I run a *lot* and by most people's standards I'm decently quick (I typically finish in the top 25% of distance races I compete in. Most people in those races are members of running clubs). I'd be pressed to run a 7 minute mile unless I specifically set out to do it, I had decent pacing information and I wasn't also having to evade armed yahoos in pickups.

Are you seriously comparing your times with a 25 yr old football athlete? I admire your chutzpah.

I was no world class athlete in school, and was sub 6. But conceded, maybe my standards are too high, and Arbery the Jogger couldn't break 8. Whatever. My bad.

If he was running hard he would at best have covered a few hundred yards and been exhausted.

But he would have done so in seconds. There is an 8 minute window here. He was not sprinting anywhere.

IMO there's no way he could have covered a mile unless he knew he was running for 8 minutes as opposed to 30 seconds, was able to pace his run, was able to run on road or on another excellent running surface, wasn't already fatigued from any previous exercise that day and didn't have any distractions such as pickup trucks full of people trying to kill him.

Psst...he is not claimed to have covered a mile, even with the back and forth.

 

[Thermal]

And yet Remington sell a folding-stock 870 that's about 74cm long with the stock folded.

We were talking about the length of Travis' actual gun, not theoretical alternatives. Please keep up.

 

[Thermal]

Considering I personally had to explain to my mother why her car door had a dent from an errant basketball, it's really not that hard to ding a car.

Especially if the impact is to a long, mostly flat panel, say like the side of a pickup truck along the bed, as was the case in Bryan's truck.



https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/arkansas-lawmakers-enact-transgender-youth-treatment-ban-n1263197

The fibers from Arbery's shirt were found in the seam along the top of the truck bed. And multiple palm prints on the nearby rear door. Hard to see how Arbery's shirt fibers get near the lip of the truck bed unless he deliberately shoulder checked the truck, or Roddie swerved the truck into him.

Interesting wording in that quote. It says white cotton fibers were found,(not exactly a unicorn-level rarity), and notes that Arbery was wearing a white shirt. Does that mean no positive match was made, just assumption (if a reasonable one)?

 

[Belz...]

More importantly, what was his mile time?

I have to give you props for self-deprecation there.