[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[theprestige]

That looks to me like a rather amusing parody of postmodernism.

The thing about postmodernism is it can't be parodied. By its very nature it transcends parody. Whatever you think is a parody, it's actually just a legitimate postmodern deconstruction.

 

[Ziggurat]

The thing about postmodernism is it can't be parodied. By its very nature it transcends parody. Whatever you think is a parody, it's actually just a legitimate postmodern deconstruction.

That's not quite right. It can be parodied (see Titania McGrath). Rather, the parodies cannot exceed the absurdity of the real thing.

 

[Belz...]

...what exact definition of postmodernism are we discussing here? I'm a little fuzzy on the term.

 

[Emily's Cat]

How the hell does that work? Peer pressure has little effect on puberty.

*If* the child in question were particularly good at Butterfly stroke, and highly competitive in it, *then* that child would likely develop very pronounced latissimus dorsi muscles, which would contribute to a somewhat more "masculine" appearance, by producing that stereotypical "inverted triangle" torso shape.

When I swam competitively, one of the female humans on my team was incredible at butterfly. And yes - if viewed from the back, that teammate did have an initial "male" shape. When they turned around, however, their very-well-developed not-pectoral-muscles-at-all were a dead giveaway.

That didn't hold true for other strokes though. The other standard strokes are less dependent on lats. I was best in breast stroke... I had great arms and fantastic thighs.

 

[JoeMorgue]

...what exact definition of postmodernism are we discussing here? I'm a little fuzzy on the term.

"Weird for the sake of weird" - Mo

More seriously I'd call it a nested, endless recursion of deconstruction.

 

[Emily's Cat]

With regard to transgender identity, nobody* is suggesting that women should have to put up with being around men in restrooms.

Some people are arguing that female humans should be allowed to retain the right to not be naked around males without the consent of said females, and that females should retain the right to not be exposed to naked males without the consent of said females.

Other people have been arguing that females should lose that right to consent, and that the feeling of affirmation of a subset of male-bodied people is more important that the consent of females.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Clothing racks and perhaps associated changing rooms?

Fun fact... most clothing is gendered to the extend that society expects (and to a degree requires) different mods of dress to signal sex. High heels versus wing-tips, for example.

But that's not the end of it. Clothing designed for females, even if intentionally created in a male style, is cut differently. Because female bodies are shaped differently. A female human can wear a dress-shirt designed for a male human, but the sizing they end up with is going to be odd, because most female humans have breasts that shirts cut for male humans don't accommodate. Additionally, male humans buying trousers from the section generally associated with female humans may face some considerable discomfort, because trousers for females aren't designed to accommodate testicles.

 

[Belz...]

"Weird for the sake of weird" - Mo

More seriously I'd call it a nested, endless recursion of deconstruction.

Sorry, Joe. I can't parse that. It was a serious question.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If sexual orientation is innate then (assuming you're either heterosexual or homosexual) before you were born, when the only person you know exists is yourself, you had a preference for whether, if another person exists and you wanted to be with it, you'd rather it be male or female. But the only way you'd know that a person is male or female is if you knew it about yourself.

And if you were mistaken about whether you're male or female, and you still remember that mistake after you're fully conscious of the world, then you have a gender issue.

Let's back up for some basic cognitive development. Prior to birth, a fetus has know knowledge of self. The concept of self develops after the infant has been born and exposed to the world. The concept of other people being separate from self develops after that. And the concept of other people having feelings and thoughts that are independent of oneself develops even later. I don't recall the specific age ranges, but I want to say "self" develops within about the first year and a half, "other" develops as a toddler, and "independent other" is around five or six. That last one is fun - it's the point where kids begin to be able to buy gifts for other people that the other person will like, even if the kid doesn't like it themselves.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There isn't much research because of the problems with researching people. However, gender is even more evident in other species with much simpler lives, so why isn't anyone researching them? Chickens, for example. I find it hard to believe that a chicken is socially conditioned whether to crow or to cluck!

You're conflating sex and gender. Sexual dimorphism is innate and is pretty well established across all mammals and most vertebrates.

Homosexuality has been observed in other species - quite a few in fact. It has also been induced during fetal development in mice, IIRC.

Transgender identity has not been observed in other species, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Sorry, Joe. I can't parse that. It was a serious question.

It was a serious answer. At it's core Postmodernism is the philosophy of destroying the definitions of things so that nothing is defined except by in the moment fiat.

Is a blank white canvas art? It is if you call it art.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What he is arguing for is the destruction of any right to privacy and safety for the female sex in places where we have to change our clothes or pull our underwear down.

Let's not be coy here, we all know that if such places are segregated by gender rather than sex, transmen will be vulnerable in male spaces and women will be vulnerable in female spaces due to the presence of males. Both sets of changing rooms will become male dominated and the female sex will find their freedom to move around in society becoming more restrictive.

Which I rather suspect is the whole point for many of the men who are so vocal about pushing for this.

Socially imposed urinary leash...

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Socially imposed urinary leash...

If that means the most rabid transphobes will stay out of the bathrooms and stop calling the cops every time a trans lady tries to take a piss, I'd call it a societal win.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Or, is there an innate drive to be focused on decorating oneself to attract a mate beyond just dressing up cleanly and nicely (that is, doing things like make-up and having a large wardrobe), in which the specifics of what dressing up looks like is culturally determined but the focus on doing so is hardwired?

Or the innate drive might be present in one sex, for whom a sexual trigger is visual stimulation, so the other sex is focused on presenting a sexually attractive appearance. What is a sexually attractive appearance could be culturally modified, but the drive to have a sexually attractive appearance would be hard wired more or less.

I have no idea if any of the above is correct, but I'd bet that the interplay of nature and nurture could be complex enough to prevent a simplistic "this is hardwired/not-hardwired so nothing else matters."

Oh now that would be a good approach to study the question. We know of other species that have sex-differentiated mating behaviors, including external embellishments. There are several species of birds and fish where the male makes the nest and decorates it, and attracts a willing female on the basis of the male's nest-building skills. And IIRC, there are some male birds that add leaves and plants to their plumage to decorate themselves to be attractive to a mate.

Those are all elements of sexual selection, but they're also behavioral. It would be interesting to know if any of those animals adopt the ornamentation of the opposite sex. It might be difficult to separate the display behavior from mating behavior though, in order to disambiguate homosexuality from transgenderism.

 

[Belz...]

It was a serious answer. At it's core Postmodernism is the philosophy of destroying the definitions of things so that nothing is defined except by in the moment fiat.

Is a blank white canvas art? It is if you call it art.

Ok. Because whenever I look the damn thing up when it's brought up in a discussion I always find that it's a movement in art and somesuch, and it doesn't seem to mesh with the opinions expressed about it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Of course! Naturally, these will eventually be replaced by automation.

No no, John has already addressed that. It will all be monitored by cameras, but he promises (pinky swear even) that no males anywhere would ever even remotely consider spying on the naked females! Honest! It's no problem, gals, just drop trou, we won't look!

 

[Belz...]

Let's back up for some basic cognitive development. Prior to birth, a fetus has know knowledge of self. The concept of self develops after the infant has been born and exposed to the world. The concept of other people being separate from self develops after that. And the concept of other people having feelings and thoughts that are independent of oneself develops even later. I don't recall the specific age ranges, but I want to say "self" develops within about the first year and a half, "other" develops as a toddler, and "independent other" is around five or six. That last one is fun - it's the point where kids begin to be able to buy gifts for other people that the other person will like, even if the kid doesn't like it themselves.

It may be a mental fiction on my part, but I remember noticing a stark difference in my own sense of self around the age of four and a half. No idea what that's about. I just noticed it back then.

 

[Emily's Cat]

But then we have proven to be more enlightened than the US in these sorts of areas over the past century or so. The US will catch up again eventually, though.

Yes, so much more enlightened. It's not like your political parties are losing female members left and right? Oh wait...

Seriously, the most reasonable things associated with gender ideology to come out of the UK have been 1) the courts shooting down puberty blockers for children and coming down on Tavistok and GIDs for being crap at their jobs and 2) the house of LORDS having the honesty to stand up for female citizens by refusing to remove the word "mother" from the maternity leave bill just recently.

It's interesting to me that a country is considered "enlightened" when the only people standing up for actual science and the dignity of half their population are the leftovers from feudalism who hold position by birthright as nobility rather than as elected officials.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Ok. Because whenever I look the damn thing up when it's brought up in a discussion I always find that it's a movement in art and somesuch, and it doesn't seem to mesh with the opinions expressed about it.

It is part of a broader philosophical (and very, very poorly defined) movement against pretty much any intellectual bedrock. If you've ever had someone use the phrase "naïve realism" against for every stating a fact, you've encountered it.

Basically it's the Ivory Tower version of the "Facts don't exist, prove reality exists before you tell me anything" crowd.

 

[Emily's Cat]

LJ isn't arguing for gender-free (unisex) spaces, he's arguing for communal spaces segregated by gender, that is, whether users personally identify with masculinity or femininity.

Communal spaces where a magical phrase allows entry for those who otherwise would be denied entry. I think it's kind of like a secret set of mouth noises that lets humans into the wonderful land of the fairy kingdom.