[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[d4m10n]

Having invested hours a day (during my woefully misspent youth) training in the pool with people of both sexes, I can say with some confidence that the boys and girls were still very much differentiable. In fact, we tended to pair off during our lengthy bus trips to remote competitions.

 

[Earthborn]

The way a child is treated has nothing to do with what box is checked-off on a vital record and everything to do with the parents and society as a whole.

If a doctor tells parents that their child is a boy, they are probably not going to treat that child as a girl, or vice versa. So this first assignment of a child's sex is still going to influence its life. It is debatable how much difference it would make if this assignment didn't happen for non-intersex children, as parents would probably just look and the child's anatomy and decide how to treat it.

Discrimination happens because of people's perceptions of sex; no one is checking the birth certificate to see if they should discriminate or not.

Discriminatory government policies don't work like that. Up until very recently the government did indeed check people's birth certificates to decide who was allowed to marry whom. The whole registration of sex at birth started specifically to decide what rights a person had. People registered as "M" for a very long time had more.

You don't eliminate discrimination by removing a box from a form. You eliminate it, fundamentally, by changing hearts and minds.

If you want to change hearts and minds, removing a box from a form is a good start. Removing the box tells people "the government no longer considers this important". Keeping the box tells people "the government still considers this very important, and you should probably think so too."

When was the last time a western government came up with a discriminatory policy based on sex assignment?

In these discussions there have been people arguing for using it to regulate in which pot a person is allowed to pee, and there have even been lawmakers proposing such laws.

That's not evidence. An observation which is expected under both hypotheses does not discriminate between those hypotheses.

Not all hypotheses are equally likely. The hypothesis that puberty blockers somehow alter a child's identity seems rather far fetched to me.

Putting 70 confused gay kids through conversion therapy for every 30 trans kids who may or may not be helped does not sound like adequate medical practice to me.

And your evidence for this is... ?

She had a gender reveal party, for starters.

Hopefully she didn't burn any states.

 

[Collin237]

Earthborn, this is getting ridiculous.

If you're actually comparing The Netherlands with the rest of the world, then tell us about what The Netherlands is actually like, and leave it up to us to decide if it's better or worse than our various countries.

If you're not, and The Netherlands has an M/F box too, then you're just doing political dreaming, and this isn't the place.

So which is it?

 

[Ziggurat]

If a doctor tells parents that their child is a boy, they are probably not going to treat that child as a girl, or vice versa. So this first assignment of a child's sex is still going to influence its life.

No doctor today is going to try to hide intersex conditions from the parents.

It is debatable how much difference it would make if this assignment didn't happen for non-intersex children, as parents would probably just look and the child's anatomy and decide how to treat it.

Which means it's not really debatable at all, we already know it's not going to make any difference.

Discriminatory government policies don't work like that. Up until very recently the government did indeed check people's birth certificates to decide who was allowed to marry whom. The whole registration of sex at birth started specifically to decide what rights a person had. People registered as "M" for a very long time had more.

But that isn't the case now in the countries we are discussing, so... not relevant.

If you want to change hearts and minds, removing a box from a form is a good start. Removing the box tells people "the government no longer considers this important". Keeping the box tells people "the government still considers this very important, and you should probably think so too."

People are always going to think sex is important, because, get this, it IS important. That's a biological fact, you can't avoid it by pretending otherwise.

Not all hypotheses are equally likely. The hypothesis that puberty blockers somehow alter a child's identity seems rather far fetched to me.

Altering their identity seems rather the point.

 

[Roboramma]

In China, it's quite common (or at least has been in recent decades), for parents to have the birthdate of their children altered on their birth certificate. This is done, as I understand it, to avoid paying fines related to the one child policy (which is why I say, "has been", I'm not sure if people do this anymore since the regulations changed).

Oddly, in spite of the age represented by their birth certificate being older than their actual chronological age, these people don't seem to go through development at any sort of accelerated rate.

 

[Earthborn]

If you're actually comparing The Netherlands with the rest of the world,

I am not. Did I claim that I was? I have been challenging people's interpretation of data from the treatment of transkids in the Netherlands in this thread, since that data is often presented as evidence that most of them are desisters, which some people think invalidates their treatment.

If you're not, and The Netherlands has an M/F box too,

It does. Well, an M/V box anyway. But there have been serious political discussions about either getting rid of it, or adding an X as Germany did.

 

[caveman1917]

Not all hypotheses are equally likely. The hypothesis that puberty blockers somehow alter a child's identity seems rather far fetched to me.

The hypothesis that blocking the event that makes desisters desist stops them from desisting isn't far-fetched but almost trivially true. It's definitely much more likely than that the people prescribing puberty blockers somehow use an almost 100% accurate selection method (for which they, of course, can provide no evidence) whereas the best selection methods in the literature are barely better than chance.

And your evidence for this is... ?

One of the fact-checks of Jack Turban's claims, Turban was claiming that the intensity of dysphoria symptoms predicted persistence/desistence very well, the fact-check found this to be false and only barely better than chance. I could go look up the paper if you want, taking the group with the most intense symptoms only changed the distribution to about 70-30. Though I think Eleadith has referenced a full regression analysis of persistence/desistence predictors, which is probably a better source although I haven't read it.

 

[Earthborn]

The hypothesis that blocking the event that makes desisters desist stops them from desisting isn't far-fetched but almost trivially true.

There is no reason to assume that puberty causes desistance in children who have persisted in their gender identity for a significant amount of time, or that blocking puberty prevents desistance.

It's definitely much more likely than that the people prescribing puberty blockers somehow use an almost 100% accurate selection method

As I explained before, there is no almost 100% selection method. There is a method that misses a lot of persisting trans kids.

One of the fact-checks of Jack Turban's claims, Turban was claiming that the intensity of dysphoria symptoms predicted persistence/desistence very well, the fact-check found this to be false and only barely better than chance.

The intensity of symptoms is indeed not a good predictor of persistence, the persistence of symptoms is.

I could go look up the paper if you want,

Yes, please look up the paper you are thinking of. I think you'll find that the numbers can be traced right back to the VU in Amsterdam, the very people prescribing puberty blockers (in very rare cases) despite not having "an almost 100% accurate selection method". I think you'll also find that there are no children receiving puberty blockers among the 70% "confused gay kids" and at most a few among the 30% trans kids.

 

[Collin237]

I am not. Did I claim that I was? I have been challenging people's interpretation of data from the treatment of transkids in the Netherlands in this thread, since that data is often presented as evidence that most of them are desisters, which some people think invalidates their treatment.

Firstly, I was under the impression that most transkids do desist, and that claims to the contrary are fearmongering?

Secondly, wouldn't most patients desisting increase the validity of treatment for those who don't?

 

[Collin237]

I am familiar with this sort of feminist writing. I am not going to pay 39 euros to see what the exact reasoning in this article is, but I guess it likely argues that registering a child as a particular sex is going to influence how it going to be treated, and that in turn has some effect on how their bodies develop; which may not be entirely wrong but not as big an influence as the article's summary makes it sound (to those not familliar with this sort of feminist writing).

I'm sure there's a way to weasel into the claim. But the fact remains that observation doesn't change reality except at subatomic scales. Denying this can have far-reaching consequences; for example, making it more difficult to study how to make solar panels more efficient.

 

[caveman1917]

There is no reason to assume that puberty causes desistance in children who have persisted in their gender identity for a significant amount of time

It's not an assumption, it's an observation. The majority of gender dysphoric children who desist do so at or shortly after puberty.

, or that blocking puberty prevents desistance.

It would be expected by the observation above.

The intensity of symptoms is indeed not a good predictor of persistence, the persistence of symptoms is.

Again, not evidence if the treatment itself can influence the outcome. Wishful thinking is not evidence.

 

[Earthborn]

It's not an assumption, it's an observation.

No, it isn't.

The majority of gender dysphoric children who desist do so at or shortly after puberty.

The majority of children who are gender non-conforming desist at or shortly after puberty. The children with an official diagnosis of gender dysphoria are much less likely to do so, and the number of them to do so after showing a persistent gender identity for several years are even less likely to do so.

Again, not evidence if the treatment itself can influence the outcome. Wishful thinking is not evidence.

The idea that the treatment itself can influence the outcome is pure wishful thinking by those who want to invalidate the treatment. Even if it were true, and some kids get misidentified, it would mean a very small number of confused gay boys who would grow up happy to be gay, would turn into girls happy to be straight.

 

[caveman1917]

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

The majority of children who are gender non-conforming desist at or shortly after puberty. The children with an official diagnosis of gender dysphoria are much less likely to do so

If you call 70-30 "much less likely" that is. Any reason you're always using vague references such as "much less" rather than actual numbers and evidence?

and the number of them to do so after showing a persistent gender identity for several years are even less likely to do so.

How much less? And where is the evidence for this claim?

The idea that the treatment itself can influence the outcome is pure wishful thinking by those who want to invalidate the treatment.

BS. Not only is there evidence of even non-medical interventions such as social transition influencing outcomes, as well as controlled experiments on sheep showing the administration of puberty blockers influencing brain development, but such concerns have been noted in the literature as well, including the effects of puberty blockers on psychosexual development.

Even if it were true, and some kids get misidentified, it would mean a very small number of confused gay boys who would grow up happy to be gay, would turn into girls happy to be straight.

And you don't see any problem there, I suppose? Let me ask you something, is your only objection to conversion therapy for homosexuals based on that conversion therapy isn't effective (ie doesn't produce happy straight people out of gay people)?

 

[theprestige]

In these discussions there have been people arguing for using it to regulate in which pot a person is allowed to pee, and there have even been lawmakers proposing such laws.

That's a sex-segregation policy that's been around for hundreds of years, at least.

Do you think this sex-segregation policy should be abolished? Or are you saying that transwomen should be segregated according to their gender rather than their sex?

 

[Belz...]

Of course there's a lot more to what sexual orientation means in real life. I was referring to xjx388's "deep in the psyche", which I repeated in quotes.

Except that the post I responded to was still YOUR argument. If there's more to it than that, then why did you imply there wasn't?

 

[Belz...]

It would definitely be a good start!

Why? What possible benefit would abandoning a long-standing practice that works for 99.7% of humans have?

Doesn't mean we can't get rid of segregationist policies.

Yes, let's eliminate women's sports entirely by sending in males to dominate their various disciplines. Sounds like a great feminist idea!

 

[Belz...]

It is a segregationist policy. And it makes it possible for the government to come up with discriminatory policies.

Distinguishing males from females is not "segregationist". Those are REAL differences.

No, the point is that she was pressurised

Unless she was an oxygen tank, the word you're looking for is "pressured".

not to develop a masculine physique

How the hell does that work? Peer pressure has little effect on puberty.

In any case, none of that came to pass. She had a gender reveal party, for starters. Once she knew her first kid was a female, it was just natural to think of her as, "her little girl." I wanted so much to tell my daughter, "So I guess all that gender-neutral crap is out the window, huh? How does it feel to force a gender on your female offspring?" But I didn't and I won't. There's already enough distance between us and I don't want to make things worse.

I don't think I could have restrained myself.

 

[Belz...]

No, it isn't.

So far, it seems that it is. What's your basis for disbelieving this?

In these discussions there have been people arguing for using it to regulate in which pot a person is allowed to pee, and there have even been lawmakers proposing such laws.

I seem to remember clearly a certain fact by which most women don't want to be around men in restrooms.

 

[LondonJohn]

That's not even remotely related to what's being claimed in the paper we were talking about. The abstract alleges a feedback loop between social pressure and biological sex.

I had been specifically (and very obviously*) responding to one particular part of a prior post of Earthborn's, which said (my bolding for emphasis):

but I guess it likely argues that registering a child as a particular sex is going to influence how it going to be treated, and that in turn has some effect on how their bodies develop; which may not be entirely wrong but not as big an influence as the article's summary makes it sound (to those not familiar with this sort of feminist writing).

* because I wrote my response immediately below the quoted part of Earthborn's post which I've reproduced here....

 

[LondonJohn]

I seem to remember clearly a certain fact by which most women don't want to be around men in restrooms.

With regard to transgender identity, nobody* is suggesting that women should have to put up with being around men in restrooms.


* Well, to be entirely accurate, some people are suggesting such a thing, but fortunately these sorts of people are being steadily overtaken by history...