[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[theprestige]

I... don't... even...


That is the most idiotic, unscientific, woo-based, fantasist nonsense I've read in a very long time.

The Australian Feminist Law Journal is a biannual peer-reviewed academic journal covering feminist legal issues from a critical perspective.

Peer-reviewed, huh? I guess I have to reconsider whether Boudicca's idea of biological transgenderism really is as fringe as I assumed. It seems our TRA contingent might have more to answer for than they think.

ETA: I also note that the trans takeover of feminist entities proceeds apace.

 

[d4m10n]

I also note that the trans takeover of feminist entities proceeds apace.

Well someone has got to "challenge the dominant cisnormative view that non-disclosure of (trans)gender history is unethical."

 

[theprestige]

I like that this thread continues.
Over time the anachronisms could be an important resource for people.

It'll be interesting to see what the anachronisms turn out to be, though. What's your prediction? Will the idea that transwomen are biologically female stand the test of time? Or will future generations point back at it and laugh?

 

[Collin237]

I disagree. Sexual orientation describes which sex one is attracted to, and whether or not that sex is the same as one's own. It isn't about how one feels about that attraction. In the past, there were a great number of homosexual people who were full of self-loathing and were disgusted by their body's reaction to other sexed bodies. They felt *bad* about being attracted to people with the same genitalia as they had. There are *still* closeted homosexuals today who feel a sense of self-hatred about their sexual orientation.

make that "reacts to" then

 

[lionking]

I... don't... even...


That is the most idiotic, unscientific, woo-based, fantasist nonsense I've read in a very long time.

April Fool’s joke? Nothing else can explain such ********.

 

[Collin237]

I... don't... even...


That is the most idiotic, unscientific, woo-based, fantasist nonsense I've read in a very long time.

That looks to me like a rather amusing parody of postmodernism.

 

[Collin237]

I am not parsing this at all.

Sexual orientation refers to the type of people you are sexually attracted to. I think the research shows that this is pretty much hardwired into you and that you don't have a choice about this attraction. You are attracted to men or women or both or neither. This is not something that can be counselled out of you. It is, to use LJ's words, "deep in the psyche."

It seems to me that many posters here are trying to say that gender identity is very much the same and I don't think that's true -or least, there is no good evidence that this is true. It's not true that identity itself is hard-wired -our sense of self goes through many changes as we age, experience things and reflect on how we feel about those experiences. If gender identity isn't hardwired, then it may be amenable to therapy if the gender identity causes gender dysphoria.

In that case, it seems like whether gender identity is fixed is the wrong question. It should be whether a given therapy session is suspected of having a fixed outcome.

 

[Collin237]

Well someone has got to "challenge the dominant cisnormative view that non-disclosure of (trans)gender history is unethical."

Well, that's two strikes against TandF in just this last page or so!

 

[Meadmaker]

I... don't... even...


That is the most idiotic, unscientific, woo-based, fantasist nonsense I've read in a very long time.

The person who wrote that was paid.

Either with tax dollars, or tuition, or both.

ETA: Although, probably not much. She's a graduate student. It was probably written while a student.

Of course, there's a journal staff.

 

[Collin237]

The person who wrote that was paid.

Either with tax dollars, or tuition, or both.

ETA: WTF is "International and Development Studies"???

 

[theprestige]

Well, that's two strikes against TandF in just this last page or so!

You're reading it the wrong way around. Publication amounts to two strikes in favor of the ideas being published. People aren't picking and choosing ideas based on their merits. They're relying on peer reviewed journals to tell them which ideas to pick. More importantly, they're relying on such journals to give their claims legitimacy.

Dismissing these papers is missing Sokal's point entirely.

 

[Aber]

Evidence for puberty blockers use very low, says NICE

In particular:

The evidence for using puberty blocking drugs to treat young people struggling with their gender identity is "very low", an official review has found.

The National Institute of Health and Care Excellence (NICE) said existing studies of the drugs were small and "subject to bias and confounding".

and

The review found the evidence of clinical effectiveness and safety of gender-affirming hormones was also of "very low" quality.

"Any potential benefits of gender-affirming hormones must be weighed against the largely unknown long-term safety profile of these treatments in children and adolescents with gender dysphoria," NICE said.

 

[d4m10n]

Well, that's two strikes against TandF in just this last page or so!

I don't see anything wrong with arguing about such things, it's just not centering the people who've traditionally been put down on account of their sex.

 

[Earthborn]

Is it even possible to misdiagnose gender dysphoria in children?

Of course. Using the protocols for the treatment of non gender conforming children developed in the Netherlands it is far more likely to fail to diagnose gender dysphoria in children who have it than it is to erroneously diagnosing gender dysphoria in children who do not have it. Simply because of how unlikely it is to for them to get a definitive diagnosis before puberty and how many years it takes for them to be diagnosed.

I've heard bisexual people describe themselves as being attracted to people, not sexes.

Yes, that is how many bisexuals describe it. They may still feel more attracted to either feminine or masculine aspects of a person, and that preference can change over time.

What is an "identity" in the first place? Identity is not some fixed, innate piece of our psychological make up. It's always being altered by experience and our inner-reflections on that experience.

I'd say "identity" is that aspect of one's personality that feels as if it is some fixed innate piece of one's psychology; the aspects that feel like they are part of "one's true self" as opposed what feels to be the quirks one picked up along the way.

Why not? Is we're trying to deal with dysphoria, why would this option NOT be at least considered?

... because it would be a violation of a person's autonomy to try to change who they consider themselves to be.

It doesn't need to be good? Strong claim, given that erroneous application of puberty blockers could be considered conversion therapy

Sometimes it helps to read beyond the first part of a sentence. It was pretty clear that I was saying that it doesn't need to be good in order for the numbers (of those who received puberty blockers) to be "skewed" (toward persisters).

Evidence for puberty blockers use very low, says NICE

The number of gender dysphoric kids put on puberty blockers is pretty small, so it is not exactly reasonable to expect large scale tests with lots of test subjects. Obviously there is also the problem that is hard to do double blind placebo trials that will take several years, especially since it is difficult to hide who got the placebo and who didn't. And then there are the obvious ethical problems of medical tests on children; they shouldn't be denied medical treatment just to prove something.

 

[Earthborn]

If we stop registering sex at birth, we can smash the binary!

It would definitely be a good start!

Well, that's two strikes against TandF in just this last page or so!

And yet, Elaedith expects us to pay it 39 Euros every she/he/they post a link to it.

 

[caveman1917]

it doesn't need to be good in order for the numbers (of those who received puberty blockers) to be "skewed" (toward persisters).

That statement could be interpreted in multiple different ways, please be more precise. Either way, my point is that, as best as I know persistence/desistence predictors such as intensity of symptoms only can change the distribution from about 80-20 to about 70-30. Is there any evidence that the selection method used to prescribe puberty blockers is any better than that? Because otherwise it looks like subjecting 70 confused gay kids to conversion therapy for every 30 trans kids that may or may not[*] be helped.

* By the latest reviews posted above it appears to be the latter

 

[Ziggurat]

It would definitely be a good start!

No, it wouldn't. Sex is binary in humans, you can't smash that.

And don't bother with the whole intersex thing. Not only do intersex people still have an actual underlying sex of either male or female (the only exception to this in humans would be cross-sex chimeras), but basically none of this transgender controversy involves actual intersex conditions.

 

[Earthborn]

Is there any evidence that the selection method used to prescribe puberty blockers is any better than that?

The evidence is the evidence Elaedith considers suspect; the fact that the vast majority of those who received puberty blockers persist and go on taking cross-sex hormones later in life.

Because otherwise it looks like subjecting 70 confused gay kids to conversion therapy for every 30 trans kids that may or may not[*] be helped.

It is more that 70 confused gay kids and 25 trans kids not receiving puberty blockers and only 5 trans kids who do.

 

[Earthborn]

No, it wouldn't. Sex is binary in humans, you can't smash that.

Doesn't mean we can't get rid of segregationist policies.

 

[theprestige]

Doesn't mean we can't get rid of segregationist policies.

Pretending to ignore biological facts is a bad way to go about it. Especially when the segregationist policies in question are based on those biological facts. And especially when there's good reason to segregate along biological lines.

Which segregationist policies would you abolish?