Today's Mass Shooting

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Bogative said:
Another mass shooting popped up on GVA today, this time in Detroit. 1 dead, 3 injured in a car-to-car shooting. This will be widely ignored also and not considered a mass shooting because…
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...the shooting was targeted and not indiscriminate, the latter of which (somebody selecting a public location and shooting whoever happens to be there rather than seeking specific individuals out) seems to be part of the most common conception of "mass shootings" in the public's mind.
 
Kestrel said:
The tern assault weapons includes certain types of handguns and shotguns. For example the TEC-DC9 handgun used by the Columbine shooters, the handgun with a 33 round magazine used in the Tucson grocery store shooting and the Saiga combat shotgun found in the shooter’s car at Sandy Hook.

I agree that handguns are at the core of the gun violence problem. The reason is that most homicides are not planned. In a culture where people keep a loaded handgun close at hand it is the tool that gets used when anger flares. But since the Heller decision declared that keeping a loaded handgun was a right we can’t ban handguns.

Regulating guns that are attractive to spree killers is indeed nibbling at the problem. But it is something we can do besides throw up our hands and declare that we just have to accept the carnage.

Colorado closed the gun show loophole after Columbine. After the Aurora theater shooting the stare implemented universal background checks, magazine restrictions and a red flag law. This latest shooting could have been avoided if the shooter’s family had asked for a red flag order.
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I'd argue it's relatively pointless nibbling. As indicated by the linked article, handguns are even the more commonly used by spree killers.

Assault Weapons is to vague a term, it basically means what ever folks want it to and they mostly want it to mean guns that aren't actually used to kill many people but seem awfully scary.
 
ahhell said:
Assault Weapons is to vague a term, it basically means what ever folks want it to and they mostly want it to mean guns that aren't actually used to kill many people but seem awfully scary.
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The gun lobby spent a lot of effort disparaging the term “assault weapons”Apparently that effort was successful.

Time for a bit of history. The original California AWB listed the banned firearms by model number. To get around the ban manufacturers made minor changes and changed the model number. The next attempt was to describe the weapons with a list of features. Once again the industry altered the design to get around the ban. The gun lobby spread the idea that the ban was all about scary looking rifles.

The next round in California focused on function. Limiting magazine size, requiring that a tool be used to swap magazines.

But we could come up with a simpler definition. For example “any semi automatic rifle or shotgun with a center fire cartridge and a magazine that holds more than five rounds”. Canada uses a definition similar to this. They also restrict the size of handgun magazines.

ETA: I understand that handguns are a serious problem. But since the Supreme Court declared then to be sacred objects we can’t do much about those handy human killing devices.

Other developed nations have figured this out. America is too stupid to follow their example.
 
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Kestrel said:
But we could come up with a simpler definition. For example “any semi automatic rifle or shotgun with a center fire cartridge and a magazine that holds more than five rounds”. Canada uses a definition similar to this. They also restrict the size of handgun magazines.
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Like in the UK where they are limited by ammunition type. only .22 rimfire is allowed for semi automatic rifles. There are no restrictions on any other feature.
In fact suppressors are encouraged for health and safety reasons.
 
Kestrel said:
ETA: I understand that handguns are a serious problem. But since the Supreme Court declared then to be sacred objects we can’t do much about those handy human killing devices.
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The legal market is the source for the black market. There are some ideas out there that could at least reduce the flow of handguns from the legal into the black market. Universal background checks, purchase limits, and a few other tweaks can cut down on that. People who know they are buying a gun for someone who can't legally own one are less likely to go through with the purchase if there's a background check, less likely to get a bunch if it takes multiple trips spread out over time, that sort of thing. Colorado is looking at requiring better securement of guns during closed hours at stores that sell guns, with an idea towards reducing burglary type theft.

I brought these up on this forum once, with all the supporting evidence. I was told that reducing the flow of guns into the black market with just drive the black market deeper underground. Like that's a bad thing?:boggled:

I agree that limits on long guns don't cut down on the death rate much - but then again, with all the anti-government yahoos out there armed to the teeth with long guns and a stated intent to use them to fight our elected government, my sympathies with long gun owners are very, very limited.
 
crescent said:
The legal market is the source for the black market. There are some ideas out there that could at least reduce the flow of handguns from the legal into the black market. Universal background checks, purchase limits, and a few other tweaks can cut down on that. People who know they are buying a gun for someone who can't legally own one are less likely to go through with the purchase if there's a background check, less likely to get a bunch if it takes multiple trips spread out over time, that sort of thing. Colorado is looking at requiring better securement of guns during closed hours at stores that sell guns, with an idea towards reducing burglary type theft.

I brought these up on this forum once, with all the supporting evidence. I was told that reducing the flow of guns into the black market with just drive the black market deeper underground. Like that's a bad thing?:boggled:

I agree that limits on long guns don't cut down on the death rate much - but then again, with all the anti-government yahoos out there armed to the teeth with long guns and a stated intent to use them to fight our elected government, my sympathies with long gun owners are very, very limited.
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Guns are durable goods though. Even if you stopped the flow of pistols today, it would take a very long time to impact the available supply on the street.

I'm always impressed by the photos posted by the cops showing guns they take off the streets. Sure, there's modern stuff, but you see a lot of antiques. Sometimes it's comical, like percussion cap firearms or turn of the century revolvers that are probably hard to even source correct ammo for. These guns stick around forever.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Guns are durable goods though. Even if you stopped the flow of pistols today, it would take a very long time to impact the available supply on the street.

I'm always impressed by the photos posted by the cops showing guns they take off the streets. Sure, there's modern stuff, but you see a lot of antiques. Sometimes it's comical, like percussion cap firearms or turn of the century revolvers that are probably hard to even source correct ammo for. These guns stick around forever.
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That's all true, but many black market guns that are used in crimes have not been in possession by the criminal for very long. This is one of those things that could have a significant reduction in the bad thing, even if it doesn't get rid of the whole bad thing.

Interpreting the Empirical Evidence on Illegal Gun Market Dynamics

Franklin Zimring first documented the disproportionate representation of new guns among those recovered by the police.20 More recently, Kennedy, Piehl, and Braga analyzed comprehensive trace data for firearms recovered from Boston youth ages 21 and under between 1991 and 1995.4 They documented that 26 % of traced firearms were recovered in crime within 2 years of their first retail sale and none of these new guns were recovered in the possession of the first retail buyer.4 Cook and Braga analyzed comprehensive trace data on handguns recovered in 32 US cities participating in ATF’s YCGII program in 1999.11 They found that 32 % of traced handguns were recovered within 3 years of their first retail purchase and only 18 % of these new guns were recovered in the possession of the first retail buyer. A California study of crime guns recovered from adolescents and young adults in 1999 emphasized the link between time to crime and policies regulating the purchase of firearms.22 A time-to-crime of less than 3 years was observed for 17.3 % of guns recovered from persons younger than 18 years, who cannot purchase guns themselves, but 34.6 % of guns recovered from persons ages 21–24.
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Frontline: How Criminals Get Their Guns
According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Guns are durable goods though. Even if you stopped the flow of pistols today, it would take a very long time to impact the available supply on the street.

I'm always impressed by the photos posted by the cops showing guns they take off the streets. Sure, there's modern stuff, but you see a lot of antiques. Sometimes it's comical, like percussion cap firearms or turn of the century revolvers that are probably hard to even source correct ammo for. These guns stick around forever.
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The durability of guns helped create modern American gun culture. A property cared for hunting rifle will easily outlive its owner. As Americans moved to cities, interest in hunting and shooting sports decreased. The gun industry responded by spreading the idea that America is so dangerous that we need to have a loaded gun at all times for protection. As a result, when you ask Americans why they own a firearm the most common answer is self defense.

Hunting firearms spend most of the year unloaded and locked away. Self defense firearms are kept close at hand and ready for instant use. Mostly they get used when people get angry or suicidal.
 
I wouldn't want to take away a person's ability to hunt, but it's also comical when they go out deer hunting with their 30 round magazine and their AR. It's just clownery.
 
dirtywick said:
I wouldn't want to take away a person's ability to hunt, but it's also comical when they go out deer hunting with their 30 round magazine and their AR. It's just clownery.
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Thirty round magazines are needed for laying down suppression fire on the battlefield. If you are laying down suppression fire while deer hunting, you are doing it wrong.
 
Kestrel said:
Thirty round magazines are needed for laying down suppression fire on the battlefield. If you are laying down suppression fire while deer hunting, you are doing it wrong.
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In scenic NJ USA, we can only hunt whitetail with a shotgun, and the barrel must have a plug installed so that you can hold two shells, and one chambered. If you can't drop 'em in three shots, you probably shouldn't be hunting.
 
Bogative said:
Do the Proud Boys have a strong presence in Chicago? Must not because there's nothing being mentioned about this on CNN.
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CNN doesn't cover every single shooting in Chicago but they have been covering Chicago's rise in gun violence:

The incident is the largest mass shooting in Chicago since last summer when 15 people were wounded in a drive-by shooting at a funeral for a victim of another drive-by shooting.

Chicago, like many large US cities, has seen a sharp rise in gun violence and shooting incidents since the end of last spring's Covid-19 related shutdowns. As of December 27, some of America's largest cities saw dramatic increases in homicides, including Chicago (55%), New York (41%) and Los Angeles (30%), according to police data.

Compared to this point last year, murders in Chicago have increased 15% and shooting incidents are up 31% in 2021, according to the latest Chicago Police data. At the same time, total crime complaints have actually declined, led by sharp drops in burglary, theft, and aggravated battery, according to police data.

Criminology experts have ascribed the rise in violence largely to pandemic-related fallout: closed schools and businesses, higher unemployment and stress and anxiety, particularly in lower-income homes. Illness and social distancing also led to fewer officers on the streets in areas that needed crime prevention the most.
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The total crime rate and the rates of other violent crimes aside from gun violence in Chicago should not be dropping since the population of black people in Chicago is not also dropping or changing versus the populations of other demographics, if the (whether implied or expressed) theories of Bogative, Thermal et al that black people are just natural criminals were true.
 
Thermal said:
In scenic NJ USA, we can only hunt whitetail with a shotgun, and the barrel must have a plug installed so that you can hold two shells, and one chambered. If you can't drop 'em in three shots, you probably shouldn't be hunting.
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When John Kerry talked about hunting deer with a shotgun back in 2004 I heard people call him a liar because everyone knows that you use rifles to shoot deer. They never seemed to wonder why buckshot shells exist.

Requiring shotguns to hunt deer makes sense in crowded areas. Shotgun pellets don’t carry as far as rifle billets. The other solution is to require hunters to use tree blinds.

I switched to a muzzle loader for deer hunting about five years ago. Before that I used a semi automatic rifle but can’t recall ever taking more than one shot at a deer.
 
Recent OpEd piece in NYT by By Nicholas Kristof. One point he brings up that I find particularly galling is the way research on gun violence has been stifled.
 
Checkmite said:
CNN doesn't cover every single shooting in Chicago but they have been covering Chicago's rise in gun violence:



The total crime rate and the rates of other violent crimes aside from gun violence in Chicago should not be dropping since the population of black people in Chicago is not also dropping or changing versus the populations of other demographics, if the (whether implied or expressed) theories of Bogative, Thermal et al that black people are just natural criminals were true.
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That's a pretty ****** up thing to post, man. Even by your already low standards.
 
Checkmite said:
The total crime rate and the rates of other violent crimes aside from gun violence in Chicago should not be dropping since the population of black people in Chicago is not also dropping or changing versus the populations of other demographics, if the (whether implied or expressed) theories of Bogative, Thermal et al that black people are just natural criminals were true.
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I've never said that and I never will because I don't believe that.
 
crescent said:
The legal market is the source for the black market. There are some ideas out there that could at least reduce the flow of handguns from the legal into the black market. Universal background checks, purchase limits, and a few other tweaks can cut down on that. People who know they are buying a gun for someone who can't legally own one are less likely to go through with the purchase if there's a background check, less likely to get a bunch if it takes multiple trips spread out over time, that sort of thing. Colorado is looking at requiring better securement of guns during closed hours at stores that sell guns, with an idea towards reducing burglary type theft.

I brought these up on this forum once, with all the supporting evidence. I was told that reducing the flow of guns into the black market with just drive the black market deeper underground. Like that's a bad thing?:boggled:

I agree that limits on long guns don't cut down on the death rate much - but then again, with all the anti-government yahoos out there armed to the teeth with long guns and a stated intent to use them to fight our elected government, my sympathies with long gun owners are very, very limited.
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I've always loved/hated the "deeper underground" platitude.

It becomes harder to procure. The black market price goes up. Product elasticity is just as real for criminals. Cost recovery, ROI, all of it.

Then, in addition to a downturn in demand, it also becomes more tightly "regulated" (what situations to risk introducing it grow smaller) in criminal organizations.
 
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