Cancel culture IRL

[Mumbles]

Except that the phrase was neither coined nor popularized by conservatives.

If you want to claim that the tweets you linked popularized the term...shouldn't you pick ones that were, um, popular? I see a lot of tweets with 0-12 likes and retweets each. I got more when I made a joke about why Waluigi's outfit isn't in the latest Animal Crossing update.

Also, shouldn't you show that the people you quote aren't themselves conservative? Just because the GOP in general and other right wing grifters have nothing to offer but grievance and bigotry doesn't mean that there aren't actual conservative individuals, GOP or not, on Twitter.

ETA: I should point out that when I say the right wing popularized the term, I mean the grifters and bigots that are steering the GOP at the moment. And I fully mean it when I say that, since their ideas stay failing, they have nothing but grievances and bigotry. Makes Toupee Fiasco their perfect idol, when you think about it.

 

[Stout]

Is that the article you meant to link to?

Yes it was and I wouldn't have used it if it didn't contain this line...... "after a conversation with another classmate, a white friend who’d declared that she’d never write a character who didn’t share her background or identity because she’d be sure to get it wrong."

Since we're all bogged down in this self censorship isn't happening thing.

Because it reads to me like a great case study that outside pressure not to be lazy or stereotypical with depictions of characters outside personal experience is leading these writers to do better work and evaluate their own past work with a closer lens.

Exactly. Writing outside one's identity should involve the dedication to research that these authors have shown and if younger authors aren't either up to the challenge or bending to the mobs and choosing to not wade in those waters then we may just end up with fiction that reads like autobiographies.

 

[tyr_13]

Except that the phrase was neither coined nor popularized by conservatives.

But sure, I guess they get to say what it means now because reasons.

Because like 'fake news' it is now overwhelming used by conservatives to attack everyone else even when conservative actions against others better fit the accusation.

Seriously, this isn't hard to understand. Why are you still hung up on the origin of the word? You've ejaculated the import of it across the thread as if it tectonic, but original use doesn't dictate current common use.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Why was there not an uproar when Mr. Potato Head and family were doing potato chip commercials?

Oh, and Amazon hasn't banned this Dr. Seuss book:

And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street

Only $10,000

The reviews are funny. the 2 most recent are from today bemoaning how awful it is that the good doctor is getting cancelled.

The next review is from 2019 and is 3 stars, saying its a fun book with with "eesh" moments.

It’s mostly fun but there’s a couple things in this book on the wrong end of history. There’s a shot at little girls that makes them sound dumb, and a very racist depiction of an Asian person. Right now I’m changing a few words when I read it to my child who can’t read yet, but eventually I’ll be straight with her about why those things aren’t cool. It’ll be a teaching moment.

And another, from 2016

Great old classic. Unfortunate racist references.

and another from 2008 complaining about the gross Asian stereotypes.

Can you really blame the publisher? There's so many other, more popular Seuss books that don't have this stink on them.

 

[Stout]

https://twitter.com/RepGregSteube/status/1366854237662162949

Fighting the important fights.

Lol, what a gong show. It looks like Hasbro screwed up at first, Associated Press ran with it and conservatives went bonkers.

“While it was announced today that the POTATO HEAD brand name & logo are dropping the ‘MR.’ I yam proud to confirm that MR. & MRS. POTATO HEAD aren’t going anywhere and will remain MR. & MRS. POTATO HEAD,” the company tweeted.

https://junkee.com/potato-head-gender-neutral-conservatives/288955

Either Hasbro screwed up...or they have a master troll in their publicity department.

 

[d4m10n]

If you want to claim that the tweets you linked popularized the term...shouldn't you pick ones that were, um, popular? I see a lot of tweets with 0-12 likes and retweets each. I got more when I made a joke about why Waluigi's outfit isn't in the latest Animal Crossing update.

Good point. Perhaps it was unclear that my link was about initial coinage and popularization within a small subculture. At any rate, I've been hearing the phrase for years before the right-wing grifters adopted it as their own. Guess it's theirs now?

Because like 'fake news' it is now overwhelming used by conservatives to attack everyone else even when conservative actions against others better fit the accusation.

Why are you letting the grifters have this phrase? We've been using it for years before they came along.

ETA: Example from 2016.

 

[Thermal]

Yes, I know. That’s the point. And for some reason, you’re concerned about the former but not so much the latter.

That's the point? So you agree they are not comparable, then go on to still try to compare them? Do you read these things at all?

Cherry picking =/= pointing out when someone is wrong. That you backtracked later is of no relevance. The issue is your double standards, of which you requested examples. Your repeated hand-wringing over “Twitter mobs” and dismissive attitude towards actual mobs in the act of violent insurrection qualifies.

Again, not relevant. What’s relevant is your dismissive attitude towards one and constant bemoaning of the other. Otherwise known as a “double standard”.

And in point of fact, the mob of violent insurrections that you didn’t care about were not “quickly squashed”. They were politely escorted from the premises with many of them still at large, including the person who potentially murdered a cop.

But tell me more about the meanies on Twitter who forced Disney to not let Gina Carano play Star Wars anymore.

Was going to do more line-by-line, but this was too good to wait.

I didn't know who she was till I googled her on this thread, and never said a single word about Disney or Star Wars or the meanies on twitter about her. I opined that her tweets were put stupidly, and that's about it. You're lying, again, to say otherwise.

Now if you'll excuse me, I am working on a new martial art called Turtle-Joe Karate ^TM. The way it works is you ignore what is in front of you, and instead argue with imaginary opponents in your head. That way, you can just lie about your opponent and claim victory! Exciting, huh? We already have a black belt...er, blackface... or two or three in this very thread.

 

[tyr_13]

Good point. Perhaps it was unclear that my link was about initial coinage and popularization within a small subculture. At any rate, I've been hearing the phrase for years before the right-wing grifters adopted it as their own. Guess it's theirs now?

Why are you letting the grifters have this phrase? We've been using it for years before they came along.

Because I'm too busy fighting against Norse runes being used by white nationalists and other kinds of Nazis.

Also, no, probably not. When did you start using it? I've never found it to be a useful phrase. It groups all kinds of criticisms into one 'culture' which is not just dummy untrue, it is ripe for removing nuance.

 

[d4m10n]

When did you start using it?

Fake news? Ages ago.

Cancel culture? A few years.

(I'm more of a fan of "outrage culture" as phrases go, but really it's much the same thing.)

 

[Cavemonster]

Yes it was and I wouldn't have used it if it didn't contain this line...... "after a conversation with another classmate, a white friend who’d declared that she’d never write a character who didn’t share her background or identity because she’d be sure to get it wrong."

Since we're all bogged down in this self censorship isn't happening thing.



Exactly. Writing outside one's identity should involve the dedication to research that these authors have shown and if younger authors aren't either up to the challenge or bending to the mobs and choosing to not wade in those waters then we may just end up with fiction that reads like autobiographies.

I don't think anyone has said that self censorship doesn't happen. I don't think anyone in this thread has said anything like that or would.

But I would say I don't see it as a big problem.

That article shows some great examples of how good and brave writers take the same kinds of feedback and social dynamics and use it to write better.

So the people self censoring would not be among that crowd. If the people who are self censoring are the less talented writers, the lazier writers, the writers without courage, I don't see a great loss to the world, or a great difference. Society as a whole has always not liked some things and some writers have always self censored. The particular taboos may shift, but good writers have always been able to take the note as inspiration like these authors seem to have done, or breeze past it if the criticism is without merit.

 

[Stout]

I don't think anyone has said that self censorship doesn't happen. I don't think anyone in this thread has said anything like that or would.

But I would say I don't see it as a big problem.

That article shows some great examples of how good and brave writers take the same kinds of feedback and social dynamics and use it to write better.

So the people self censoring would not be among that crowd. If the people who are self censoring are the less talented writers, the lazier writers, the writers without courage, I don't see a great loss to the world, or a great difference. Society as a whole has always not liked some things and some writers have always self censored. The particular taboos may shift, but good writers have always been able to take the note as inspiration like these authors seem to have done, or breeze past it if the criticism is without merit.

This whole back and forth about old rich guy, tabloids, just his assertion has been a steadfast refusal to even consider that young authors might be self censoring to avoid blowback like Jeanine Cummins got with American Dirt.

We have no way if telling how big the problem is or whether it's growing but I totally agree that if you're going to put yourself out there in the public be it as an author, comedian, actor etc then you had better be prepared to face some rather harsh criticism.

 

[Mumbles]

Good point. Perhaps it was unclear that my link was about initial coinage and popularization within a small subculture. At any rate, I've been hearing the phrase for years before the right-wing grifters adopted it as their own. Guess it's theirs now?

Why are you letting the grifters have this phrase? We've been using it for years before they came along.

ETA: Example from 2016.

I'll let them have it, because it's not a phrase I find even slightly useful, much like "woke mob" (I know what "stay woke" means, and it's just awareness of anti-black racism and how it functions, and how to counter it, not any sort of violent group screaming and carrying torches - that's their thing). I know what "cancelling" is - cancelling Cosby's comedy tour, or R. Kelly's appearances, because they're both awful people. But that's not a "culture"

And when they do, I can point out their absurd hissy fits over the name of an injection-molded faux tuber or some old racist book that people never read anyway is just them distracting from, say, that massive stimulus/pandemic relief bill or the major civil rights legislation that counteracts their actual divisions and racism.

 

[d4m10n]

I'll let them have it, because it's not a phrase I find even slightly useful...

Are you hoping to make the argument that no one should want to have a phrase that refers to "the popular practice of withdrawing support for...public figures and companies after they have done or said something considered objectionable or offensive" as it manifests nowadays? If not, what argument are you hoping to make in a thread about this specific phenomenon? (Tuber toy and Dr. Seuss references don't seem particularly on topic.)

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I've worked audio from hole-in-the-wall open mic nights to a modern ~2k theatre*.

"Art" or "public performance" or what have you is a conversation, a dialogue with the audience.

I'm fairly certain this has been so since at least Herodotus.

For most "average joe" types, I'm still waiting for examples of someone having a minor reactionary moment from some possible bullying, recovering after a moment, yet being fired. No, even a few "might have been set off" examples that come to mind feature out-of-proportion explosive rage for way too long or (twitter version) repeated mistakes, doubling down, and racing for the victim crown.

I'm in Missouri, Senator Hawley has crawled right up on the cross and showing us his suffering as he fights for the values of...excuse me...I need to go puke...

* the best venues are in churches and schools?! [emoji54]

 

[johnny karate]

That's the point? So you agree they are not comparable, then go on to still try to compare them? Do you read these things at all?

I’m not comparing them. I’m comparing your reaction to them insofar as they involve “mobs”. Theoretical “Twitter mobs” are very problematic to you because reasons. Actual mobs of violent insurrectionists storming the Capitol on live television bore you to the point that you’d rather tile your floor.

Was going to do more line-by-line, but this was too good to wait.

I didn't know who she was till I googled her on this thread, and never said a single word about Disney or Star Wars or the meanies on twitter about her. I opined that her tweets were put stupidly, and that's about it. You're lying, again, to say otherwise.

Cool There was no lie in my post.

 

[Mumbles]

Are you hoping to make the argument that no one should want to have a phrase that refers to "the popular practice of withdrawing support for...public figures and companies after they have done or said something considered objectionable or offensive" as it manifests nowadays? If not, what argument are you hoping to make in a thread about this specific phenomenon? (Tuber toy and Dr. Seuss references don't seem particularly on topic.)

Are you standing outside a Cosby comedy show with a sign? That's a protest.

Are you refusing to listen to anything involving R. Kelly, as an organized group? That's a boycott.

Are you blocking/unsubscribing from someone, and that's it? That's just you spending your time elsewhere - it's nothing?

Did someone get fired for unacceptable behavior? That's "capitalism in the US".

Are you changing the name of a product or product line? That's "marketing".

Are you attempting to remove a president for high crimes and misdemeanors? That's either "impeachment" or "conviction".

Are you threatening to rape or murder someone for saying something you like? That's "threatening", and you should stop it.

I think that covers all the various distinct things that have been lumped under "cancel culture" in a very selective manner, depending on the whether or not the windbag approves of it or not.

 

[Thermal]

Are you standing outside a Cosby comedy show with a sign? That's a protest.

Are you refusing to listen to anything involving R. Kelly, as an organized group? That's a boycott.

Are you blocking/unsubscribing from someone, and that's it? That's just you spending your time elsewhere - it's nothing?

Did someone get fired for unacceptable behavior? That's "capitalism in the US".

Are you changing the name of a product or product line? That's "marketing".

Are you attempting to remove a president for high crimes and misdemeanors? That's either "impeachment" or "conviction".

Are you threatening to rape or murder someone for saying something you like? That's "threatening", and you should stop it. I think that covers all the various distinct things that have been lumped under "cancel culture" in a very selective manner, depending on the whether or not the windbag approves of it or not.

Actually, it's a serious crime and you should be convicted for it.

Also, it's a little mixed-messaging to threaten to rape for saying something...you like?

 

[Cavemonster]

This whole back and forth about old rich guy, tabloids, just his assertion has been a steadfast refusal to even consider that young authors might be self censoring to avoid blowback like Jeanine Cummins got with American Dirt.

I don't think the people responding to you are arguing that no one self censors.

Throughout the history of published writing, self censorship has been incredibly common. For much of history, writing critical of the powers that be or strong social norms could get you thrown in prison. Writers certainly tailored their output to that, and to every strongly held social norm.

What people are rejecting is that cancel culture is creating a particularly widespread and new chilling effect that's a real problem in a way that's remarkably different from older social norms.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I don't think the people responding to you are arguing that no one self censors.

Throughout the history of published writing, self censorship has been incredibly common. For much of history, writing critical of the powers that be or strong social norms could get you thrown in prison. Writers certainly tailored their output to that, and to every strongly held social norm.

What people are rejecting is that cancel culture is creating a particularly widespread and new chilling effect that's a real problem in a way that's remarkably different from older social norms.

I think the new thing is people complaining about it because they want to be issued free passes on any consequences of saying whatever they please. Previously, people accepted that "hey, if I publish my pro-Hitler screed I might get fired from my job working for Steven Spielberg" but now they want to publish their pro-Hitler screed and somehow get immunity from bad consequences (although I'm certain they'd accept good consequences). They'd sue Spielberg (or try to "cancel" him) for firing them "for having an opinion".

 

[johnny karate]

(Tuber toy and Dr. Seuss references don't seem particularly on topic.)

You should probably take a look at the people with whom you’ve aligned yourself on this issue.

Dr.Seuss and Mr.Potato Head are very much on topic and at the forefront of the this movement you’ve chosen to join.