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Cancel culture IRL

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Well, again, Burr not being a series regular means he’s not an integral part of the show’s promotion. He doesn’t do press junkets or promotional events. In short, he’s not tied to the brand the way a series regular is. It’s a different standard and level of expectation.

Yeah, I expect he's get more slack in some ways, but I think if he tweeted "Six million wasn't enough" tomorrow, he'd be pretty likely out of the show going forward, and Disney would likely make an announcement to that effect.

Contractual differences aside, public perception of "Person on your show did something I'm angry about" doesn't make those fine distinctions with such a hard line.
 
Well, no. TOupee Fiasco's big parallel is, very obviously, swarthy immigrants.

Remember them? The guys he built a big wall to keep them out, and gummed up the refugee works, kidnapped their children, and stereotyped as subhuman super-violent rapists that were forming into giant ravenous armies every time he needed a convenient distraction to scare his bigoted base with?

And, coincidentally, the ones that he...how should I put this...concentrated into campuses where they were purposely denied clean food, health care, legal access, and the like?

Frankly, I'm still expecting the Biden administration will find at least one mass grave at one of these camps if they decide to look into matters.

Disney, via Marvel, actually provides us with another type of story, of an obnoxious failed actor who has seemingly ended up redeeming himself wildly - that man being Robert Downey Jr. Sadly, whatsherface has apparently decided that, rather than going on cleanup, she'd prefer to work with the laughably bad writer who is apparently unable to be physically attractive to his own wife, Ben Shapiro, whose last work was apparently a low-rated school shooting flick, although to be fair the school shooters were apparently the bad guys. I haven't watched it myself because I refuse to torture myself, so this is just what I've heard about it.

(Yeah, the wife part was low...like the moisture level of okay okay I'll stop :D )

Trump and the Republican Party were about where Hitler and the Nazis were in 1933. They had assumed power through the democratic system, were saying bad things about immigrants and mistreating them badly. Trump moved a little slower than Hitler, and his burning of the Reichstag storming of the Capitol failed. Now of course my speculation about what would have happened had he succeeded in overturning the election and holding power succeeded is as good, or as worthless, as anybody else's, but, I, for one highly doubt that, had Trump succeeded in holding power this year, he would have quietly walked into the sunset in 2024.When his wall failed to stem the tide of immigrants, we would probably have seen a large force of guards deployed with "shoot to kill" orders. Would death camps for immigrants or "violent" African Americans been next? Hard to say, but that was very much the path we were on.

Comparing Trump, and most Republicans to Hitler and the Nazis at this stage of the game is very much not hyperbole.
 
Social Credit SystemWP here we come!

Do you honestly think the public facing representatives of most enterprises don't already live in such a system?

If you want to be the face of a product, service, or organization then you have to behave like the face of a product, service, or organization. I can't imagine this is new to you and I really didn't think this would need explaining.

JoJo Siwa is currently risking her income from right wing bigoted families just so she can come out as dating a woman. I assume she hid this for some time until she felt established enough to deal with the backlash and loss of revenue. Maybe there will be more goodwill than backlash, I don't know. But she knew that as an artist that caters to children she would have to deal with parents who had strong feelings about her personal life once she was honest about her personal life.

We are each our own brand. You may only need to present your brand to your boss and others in your organization or you may need to present your brand to a wider audience. The wider the audience, the more scrutiny you can expect. That is the heart of capitalism: the freedom to invest in brands, ideas, projects and people that we think are worth investing in. I'm not going to invest in a brand that my customers will find offensive. Are you going to try to force me to?
 
Immoral behaviour doesn't always justify employer action. It's immoral to post anti-vax memes on Facebook, but we shouldn't sack everyone who does. Clinicians, perhaps.

Why should we care about the anti-vax memes of a clinician who has a following six and not the anti-vax memes of a celerity who has a following of six million?

I think you have this backwards, personally.
 
I've seen Trumps run as president referred to as "Fascist-lite" much more than "Fascist". For the last 4 years, most folks I've seen have been comparing Trump to the early parts of Hitler's timeline, not the end part. The goal being to use hindsight to get ahead of the situation. His run also shares a lot in common w/ the rise of Mussolini.

Well, we don't really know whether Trump, unchecked would have ended up committing the industrialized murder of millions of people. Maybe not. But I don't think there was any "lite" about his fascism. Maybe, had he had his way, he would haven been a Mussolini or a Franco, rather than a Hitler. I still think we narrowly dodged a bullet.
 
Yeah...unless the products are not being sold because the sellers perceive they would not make sufficient profit to overcome public animosity. I have no moral objections to eating horse meat but I cannot purchase it because nobody sells it here, because in this culture horses are not food animals and the public would create outcry against anybody who tried to sell it.

Which is the whole point of the "cancel culture" debate: is it good or bad that certain things can be stopped by the barrier of public disdain?

It adds little value to point out that theoretically we can buy whatever we choose if the item we would choose is not for sale.

Off topic: I really don't see any significant moral difference between eating horses, or dogs, for that matter, and eating cattle or hogs. All of them are mammals, and have similar levels of intelligence and consciousness. I have not had a whole lot of interaction with horses, so I have no real emotional connection with them. OTOH, I have owned, and loved a number of dogs. Had I ever found myself in a situation where I was facing starvation and had to choose between killing and eating my dog and dying I would have killed and eaten my dog. I would have cried like a baby while doing it and hated that I had to do it, but I would have done it. I understand that a similar emotional connection exists for many people with horses. While I would never personally buy and eat dog meat if it were available in a store, I could not in good conscience condemn another person for eating dog meat, or horse meat, while I personally enjoy eating the meat of cattle and hogs.
 
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Okay. Then one of our two tribes of politic needs to stop throwing rocks through Overton's Window.

"Waaahhh! Waaaahhh! Why does everything have to political!" doesn't work when one side of "political" is reality-denying conspiracy theorists.

That was my point with Chris Pratt early. You can be conservative as you want and not get "cancelled" until your "conservatism" becomes hateful or stupid.

It's nobody fault that conservatism is defining itself by its hate and stupidity more and more as time goes on.

I'm sure I'm doing a "no true Scotsman" here, but as I see it, Joe Biden is probably closer to being a true conservative than most Republicans. Republicans have gone so far down the road of white supremacy and denying parts of reality that they don't like that I really think fascist is a much better description of the majority of them now than conservative.
 
Off topic: I really don't see any significant moral difference between eating horses, or dogs, for that matter, and eating cattle or hogs. All of them are mammals, and have similar levels of intelligence and consciousness. I have not had a whole lot of interaction with horses, so I have no real emotional connection with them. OTOH, I have owned, and loved a number of dogs. Had I ever found myself in a situation where I was facing starvation and had to choose between killing and eating my dog and dying I would have killed and eaten my dog. I would have cried like a baby while doing it and hated that I had to do it, but I would have done it. I understand that a similar emotional connection exists for many people with horses. While I would never personally buy and eat dog meat if it were available in a store, I could not in good conscience condemn another person for eating dog meat, or horse meat, while I personally enjoy eating the meat of cattle and hogs.

I've eaten cows that I had a better relationship with than my dog. No cow ever peed on my tile floor.
 
Not only agreed, but I feel like this is what's deliberately skipped over in such hand-wringing. People are distorting things to make it look like

1. it's just some nutcase in the Twitter crowd distorting things, while nobody else gives a flip, and

2. it's somehow a new "culture" to react to that.

The actual facts are:

1. Such attitudes also affect coworkers. Someone being a racist and/or homophobic and/or transphobic twit is also affecting the happiness of not only other cast members, but also the sound guy or makeup artist or writer who may well be a middle-eastern homosexual jew. Even if they somehow manage to not be a racist/homophobic/whatever twit in person at work -- which most such twits don't; they tend to think it's just being right and telling things as they are -- the very fact that they do make such statements over a public medium is affecting everyone who gets forwarded those posts.

And as a producer or director you DO have to manage that, just like in any other business. You can't just demand that everyone be happy and get over it, just so that an overt bigotted twit can happily continue to be so.

and

2. It's nothing new. People have been fired for not playing nice with coworkers for as long as we have a recorded history.

I mean, even as public statements outside work go, we had stuff like someone being fired from Cheers in 1989, long before most people even heard of the Internet, much less Twitter, for basically insulting a co-worker on radio.

But generally, getting booted because the others can't get along with you is AT LEAST as old as Solon's reforms in 594 BCE. That's right: over 2600 years ago. That was how Greek democracy -- which we all still claim to be the successors of -- worked: if the others can't get along with you, for no matter what reason, even literally being too gay for a gay city like Athens (no, really, we have the historical records for THAT silly trial,) you get the boot.

Hell, it arguably even goes all the way back to tribal stage. The bushmen culture (which is at least hypothesized to be as closed to the original pre-warfare human culture as it gets) even has built in mechanisms for going to a different tribe, if the current one doesn't get along with you. And other tribal cultures can go as far as murder you for it.


So basically all I'm seeing isn't some dangerous new "culture", but a subset of the intersection of "old" and "idiot" on a Venn diagram, going reactionary and afraid of whatever kids these days are doing on this newfangled Twitter thing. OMG, if anyone posts any distortion of what you said on this newfangled Twitter thing, it has some kind of mind control powers, and everyone including your employer absolutely has no alternative but obey.

Which, to be fair, is also not something new. It goes back at least all the way to Hesiod, who thought there's no future for Greece if it's in the hands of the young 'uns. That's right: long before the golden age of Pericles, before even Greek democracy, an old idiot saw no future for Greece (much less a golden age) because the young 'uns are doing things differently than in his time.

Though arguably it goes back even before that. The first known historical novel, the Story Of Wenamun, circa 1000 BC, already goes full tilt with how morals and everything have gone to hell in his time, compared to good old times. It's actually set in 1195 BCE (year 5 of Pharaoh Ramesses XI), so he's thinking that even 200 years before his times, things had already gone wrong, compared to the good old day.

NB: the rule of Pharaoh Ramesses XI is generally considered a renaissance by historians. But nope, according to the dude who wrote that, things were already going to hell because young 'uns were doing things differently than back in the good ol' days :p

In the opinion of many older people, aren't things always going to hell because the young 'uns are doing things differently than back in the good old days? I say this being pretty old myself. But I always get a chuckle when people my age (including myself) start saying the same things about young people today that people of my parents' or grandparents' generation said about my generation.
 
Do you honestly think the public facing representatives of most enterprises don't already live in such a system?

If you want to be the face of a product, service, or organization then you have to behave like the face of a product, service, or organization. I can't imagine this is new to you and I really didn't think this would need explaining.

JoJo Siwa is currently risking her income from right wing bigoted families just so she can come out as dating a woman. I assume she hid this for some time until she felt established enough to deal with the backlash and loss of revenue. Maybe there will be more goodwill than backlash, I don't know. But she knew that as an artist that caters to children she would have to deal with parents who had strong feelings about her personal life once she was honest about her personal life.

We are each our own brand. You may only need to present your brand to your boss and others in your organization or you may need to present your brand to a wider audience. The wider the audience, the more scrutiny you can expect. That is the heart of capitalism: the freedom to invest in brands, ideas, projects and people that we think are worth investing in. I'm not going to invest in a brand that my customers will find offensive. Are you going to try to force me to?

The tears being shed in this thread for the employment prospects of a millionaire are really something to behold.
 
I've eaten cows that I had a better relationship with than my dog. No cow ever peed on my tile floor.

"They say dog is man's best friend. But my worst enemy wouldn't take a dump on my brand new carpet and stare me straight in the face the entire time he is doing it."
 
Again scrap away all the unnecessary language, all the unnecessary hand wringing, all the unnecessary fluff.

For people who are opposed to cancel culture which of the following two things needs to stop happening?

1. People need to stop disliking other people for doing certain things.
2. People need to stop acting on 1.

Because that's all this is. At the end of the day this is just the most possible wordy, over-verbose, and overly-complicated to go "Holy crap I just realized that not everybody likes everybody else."
 
Again scrap away all the unnecessary language, all the unnecessary hand wringing, all the unnecessary fluff.

For people who are opposed to cancel culture which of the following two things needs to stop happening?

1. People need to stop disliking other people for doing certain things.
2. People need to stop acting on 1.

Because that's all this is. At the end of the day this is just the most possible wordy, over-verbose, and overly-complicated to go "Holy crap I just realized that not everybody likes everybody else."

When "doing certain things"= expressing an opinion then 2 (when "acting on" = responding in a manner that exceeds countering the opinion)

Disney could certainly offer a statement clarifying that the opinions of the people employed by them are not the opinions of Disney.
 
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Why should we care about the anti-vax memes of a clinician who has a following six and not the anti-vax memes of a [celebrity] who has a following of six million?
We should care about both of them, of course, and do our best to counter both of them with evidence-based medicine. We may well need a celebrity doctor (Fauci? Lipkin?) to address one of them, though.

For people who are opposed to cancel culture which of the following two things needs to stop happening?

1. People need to stop disliking other people for doing certain things.
2. People need to stop acting on 1.

I'd say #2 is clearly true, at least some of the time.
 
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When "doing certain things"= expressing an opinion then 2 (when "acting on" = responding in a manner that exceeds countering the opinion)

Disney could certainly offer a statement clarifying that the opinions of the people employed by them are not the opinions of Disney.

“Expressing an opinion”. :rolleyes:

It would be easier to take wokescolds and their concerns seriously if they didn’t bend over backwards to excuse and minimize the behavior of people behaving like obnoxious jerks.
 
Of course they are free to do so. As to "often" we'd need more than a handful of anecdotes.

Again, fair enough. The important thing is that we’ve established that businesses and corporations are not held hostage by the whims of “mobs”.

So remind me again... what’s the problem here?
 
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