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[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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None of this is especially difficult, you know. Don't know why you and others keep asking me this stuff.

The answer is: there's no such thing as the female penis*. There are some women with penises. These women are a subset of the class "transwomen". There are no females with penises.


* Except, perhaps, in a minuscule amount of intersex people who have something akin to a male sex organ, but who are in other respects genetically female. Or..... in a more esoteric way, women who have greatly enlarged clitori, which could in certain respects be considered similar (in sexual arousal terms, particularly) to a penis.

Yes. Very easy.

1: Redefine terms to be what I want.
2. If anyone uses those terms under a different definition while advocating that transwomen be excluded from women's locker rooms, call them bigots.
3. If anyone use those terms under a different definition while advocating that transwomen be allowed access to women's locker rooms, call anyone who disagrees bigots.

What could be simpler?
 
Invalid. Valid. There's some conditions that come pretty close to transgenderism. Transableism is one. That's an invalid condition. I mean, just look at them, they want their limbs removed. What's wrong with these people?

Transgenderism is valid though. There's all that stuff about gender, and I think homosexuals were discriminated against in the past, and black people were kept out of Mexican toilets. Maybe?



This is why we have people who actually have lightyears more collective expertise and experience in these kinds of things, upon whom society at large looks for guidance. I don't think I'd be going out on a limb by saying that this is the only viable societal approach to these sorts of matters.

Personally, I (and, I suspect, you) have zero formal education, comparatively minuscule levels of expertise, and comparatively minuscule levels of experience - compared with even one of the world's thousands of true experts in the field - when it comes to trying to derive an understanding from first principles of these sorts of conditions. And I certainly have no personal - or even one-step-removed - exposure to them. I can't know what it feels like to be, say, gay or transgender - because I am neither of those things myself.

And unless one does have personal (or maybe even one-step-removed) experience of these conditions, it's practically impossible - absent years of specialised education, expertise and experience - to come anywhere close to understanding them and judging their validity. In my opinion, it is entirely logical and correct to defer to the settled judgement of those who DO have the most education, expertise and experience.

After all, what other way could there be to approach these sorts of issues? It would, for example, be laughably easy - though, of course, laughably incorrect - to claim that conditions such as transidentity or homosexuality aren't valid, purely on the basis that one doesn't have those existential identity considerations oneself. And before medical and social sciences - particularly, of course, those which deal with intangible matters of the deep brain and human consciousness - came properly of age post-Freud, this was (sadly) precisely how society DID treat those with minority identities such as homosexuality and transgenderism.

Fortunately we know better now year-on-year: not only better in terms of a better understanding on the part of experts in the field, but also better in terms of first legislatures and then society at large (which, sadly, often has to be taught or legislated in order to confront its unfair prejudices).
 
Yes. Very easy.

1: Redefine terms to be what I want.
2. If anyone uses those terms under a different definition while advocating that transwomen be excluded from women's locker rooms, call them bigots.
3. If anyone use those terms under a different definition while advocating that transwomen be allowed access to women's locker rooms, call anyone who disagrees bigots.

What could be simpler?



Like I said a short while ago: these are not "my" definitions (or "redefinitions"). Why do you think they are?

Even a small effort put into finding some reliable online resources would be able to show you conclusively that, far from being "my" definitions (or "redefinitions"), they are in fact the standard definitions used when discussing transgender identity in a scientific or legislative context.

I guess, though, that if you're determined to believe that I'm making these definitions up to serve my own ends, there's little or no point in me trying to disabuse you of that notion (not even when I jump through your and others' hoops by providing supporting material.....).


*Been wastin' most our lives, livin' in a sceptics' paradise....*
 
Lol, okay, I'm going to have to give you this one... but it's not the win you think it is.

You're correct - the term was originally coined by females that didn't want to be associated with such regressive views of womanhood, views based on egregiously confining stereotypes that have been used to keep women down for thousands of years. It was originally coined by RADICAL FEMINISTS who viewed your interpretation of womanhood as regressive and oppressive.

Here is a good rundown of what it means, even though it focuses more on JK Rowling specifically, she has pretty much embraced her status as the Queen of TERFs: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/09/what-terf-definition-trans-activists-includes-j-k-rowling/5326071002/

And I've posted it before, but the views of the woman who originally coined the term: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/29/im-credited-with-having-coined-the-acronym-terf-heres-how-it-happened

Being born female and then growing into adulthood is "a regressive view of womanhood"? I don't think so. nor do most feminists. My take is that a growing number of women are joining EC et al as they learn more and as (often overtly misogynistic) TRAs make their case (more so in the UK). The sports issue here in the US will not help in the long run. Nor will people saying sex/biology is a social construct. Or TWs in female prisons. Or TWs taking positions meant for females.

Womanhood is no longer the sole province of AFAB people, so it is a regressive view.
 
Like I said a short while ago: these are not "my" definitions (or "redefinitions"). Why do you think they are?

Even a small effort put into finding some reliable online resources would be able to show you conclusively that, far from being "my" definitions (or "redefinitions"), they are in fact the standard definitions used when discussing transgender identity in a scientific or legislative context.

I guess, though, that if you're determined to believe that I'm making these definitions up to serve my own ends, there's little or no point in me trying to disabuse you of that notion (not even when I jump through your and others' hoops by providing supporting material.....).


*Been wastin' most our lives, livin' in a sceptics' paradise....*


And another "whoosh"!



The key feature of my post was not that your definitions are not just your own. Yes, your definitions are used by lots of people, but are NOT being used by the most prominent transperson in this thread. Your definitions and ___ do not match. ___ definitions are not the same as your definitions.

However, you never express disagreement with ___ definitions, and you share that trait with a lot of other people. The important thing, based on behavior, is to call people bigots. That's consistent. Definitions can be flexible as long as we identify the bad people.

(In case people do not understand the references to ___, I am forgoing all use of gendered pronouns or possessive adjectives when referring to forum members.)
 
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This is why we have people who actually have lightyears more collective expertise and experience in these kinds of things, upon whom society at large looks for guidance. I don't think I'd be going out on a limb by saying that this is the only viable societal approach to these sorts of matters.

Personally, I (and, I suspect, you) have zero formal education, comparatively minuscule levels of expertise, and comparatively minuscule levels of experience - compared with even one of the world's thousands of true experts in the field - when it comes to trying to derive an understanding from first principles of these sorts of conditions. And I certainly have no personal - or even one-step-removed - exposure to them. I can't know what it feels like to be, say, gay or transgender - because I am neither of those things myself.

And unless one does have personal (or maybe even one-step-removed) experience of these conditions, it's practically impossible - absent years of specialised education, expertise and experience - to come anywhere close to understanding them and judging their validity. In my opinion, it is entirely logical and correct to defer to the settled judgement of those who DO have the most education, expertise and experience.

After all, what other way could there be to approach these sorts of issues? It would, for example, be laughably easy - though, of course, laughably incorrect - to claim that conditions such as transidentity or homosexuality aren't valid, purely on the basis that one doesn't have those existential identity considerations oneself. And before medical and social sciences - particularly, of course, those which deal with intangible matters of the deep brain and human consciousness - came properly of age post-Freud, this was (sadly) precisely how society DID treat those with minority identities such as homosexuality and transgenderism.

Fortunately we know better now year-on-year: not only better in terms of a better understanding on the part of experts in the field, but also better in terms of first legislatures and then society at large (which, sadly, often has to be taught or legislated in order to confront its unfair prejudices).

Yep, and that is why I posted that article by Julia Serano regarding referring to us as biologically male and why it is incorrect. With her being not only trans, but also a biologist, she has insight into why we are female that a lot of us laypeople don't.

But of course when people didn't agree with her conclusions, they just dismissed her as a crackpot rather than refuting her data and conclusions.
 
Are you dismissing all of the issues EC raised? Do you think there should be any sex-based rights at all?



1. Person points out that transgender identity has been attacked by some within these threads in a hostile and juvenile manner.

2. EC "responds" to this by reeling off her litany of points which are wholly irrelevant (note: not "unimportant") in terms of responding to the actual post to which she was responding. And by deliberately seeking to conflate the two by misusing the "hostile and juvenile" term in respect of her own unrelated points.

3. I respond to EC's post, pointing out that the person to whose post she was responding was clearly not referring to any of the things which EC chose to list off in her "response".

4. You infer from the above that I may be "dismissing all of the issues EC raised".


When it was disingenuous and misdirectional of EC to have raised them in the first place, as a "response" to a post which itself was talking solely and specifically about the number of hostile and juvenile posts aimed at attacking transgender identity.

:rolleyes:
 
Yep, and that is why I posted that article by Julia Serano regarding referring to us as biologically male and why it is incorrect. With her being not only trans, but also a biologist, she has insight into why we are female that a lot of us laypeople don't.

But of course when people didn't agree with her conclusions, they just dismissed her as a crackpot rather than refuting her data and conclusions.

Jerry Coyne is a prominent evolutionary biologist and atheist who disagrees:
 
:boggled:

Wow. Just wow. Things actually said in these threads about females, and to denigrate and insult females are just fine.

This really does reinforce my interpretation of the trans agenda as being innately misogynistic.



Somebody was addressing the number of recent posts within this thread which were hostile and juvenile in their attacks on transgender identity.

You then (somehow) chose to offer a "reply" to this post with your list of female grievances. Which was/is totally irrelevant as a response to a post which specifically discussed posts aimed at transgender identity.

I then replied to that post of yours, explaining in more detail what the first person was referring to.

You then (above) have gone all-in on the entirely illogical non sequitur that because a) I did not address any of the items in your list (because they were irrelevant to the actual post you were responding to), but instead sought to bring things back to the actual topic of that first post to which you'd offered your *response*, therefore b) I must necessarily hold the belief that all the things you set out in your list are "just fine".


I suppose that a good deal of this can at least now be viewed in the context of your own clarification of the true overall way in which you view transgender identity, so thanks for that.
 
4. You infer from the above that I may be "dismissing all of the issues EC raised".

:rolleyes:

I infer this (that you are dismissive of the issues EC raised) from your posts generally, not just that one. I note you didn't answer whether you think there should be female-based rights. This is at the heart of the conflict, and why there will likely be increasing backlash against trans-activism without taking into account female issues. And note - I'd like to see greater acceptance of trans-folks in the US, but without infringing on female rights.
 
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And another "whoosh"!



The key feature of my post was not that your definitions are not just your own. Yes, your definitions are used by lots of people, but are NOT being used by the most prominent transperson in this thread. Your definitions and ___ do not match. ___ definitions are not the same as your definitions.

However, you never express disagreement with ___ definitions, and you share that trait with a lot of other people. The important thing, based on behavior, is to call people bigots. That's consistent. Definitions can be flexible as long as we identify the bad people.

(In case people do not understand the references to ___, I am forgoing all use of gendered pronouns or possessive adjectives when referring to forum members.)



Oh boy.

What I think I find particularly duplicitous is - only when it suits, of course - to trot out "well, the (one) actual transgender person says something different", with the obvious implication that the transgender person must (almost axiomatically, it would seem) be right.

And the follow-on duplicity zinger is to find ways to disregard any and all evidence subsequently provided to show precisely how the worlds of medical science and legislatures defined gender and sex, and the man/woman male/female terms within them.
 
And unless one does have personal (or maybe even one-step-removed) experience of these conditions, it's practically impossible - absent years of specialised education, expertise and experience - to come anywhere close to understanding them and judging their validity. In my opinion, it is entirely logical and correct to defer to the settled judgement of those who DO have the most education, expertise and experience.

This is such a lazy argument.

It assumes that experts are not swayed by the politics of the environment in which they work.

It also assumes that the experts actually behave like experts, where for example the recent Tavistock Centre court case showed that they do not.
 
Jerry Coyne is a prominent evolutionary biologist and atheist who disagrees:

The only definition that works across taxa is based on gamete type/organization around producing that gamete type. A cross-species definition that works is necessitated by the fact that we know the process in humans is derived from a common ancestor with (at the very least) all other vertebrates - with a number of modifications present in all eutherian mammals. So- unless you are a creationist (or similar), you can't define the sexes differently in humans than in other mammals.

If we saw trans-behavior in other species, it would likely be labeled sexual mimicry I found a decently written blog post by a brave female evol bio grad student that suggested this (that Trans-IDs in humans are a form of sexual mimicry) - will see if I can find it later.
 
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I infer this (that you are dismissive of the issues EC raised) from your posts generally, not just that one. I note you didn't answer whether you think there should be female-based rights. This is at the heart of the conflict, and why there will likely be increasing backlash against trans-activism without taking into account female issues.



Uhm, firstly, I don't recall ever having been asked that question.

Secondly, this forum is not an interrogation room. I can choose to answer as much or as little as I want. Furthermore, my not answering any given question - which may be because I didn't even see it, or for any other reason - is not in any way a logical green light for anyone to conclude either that a) I couldn't answer it or b) I didn't wish to answer it.

This high-handed "I note you didn't......" indicates clearly to be that you've drawn certain inferences. Maybe I should start asking you lots of questions (from which I am allowed to draw adverse influences if for any reason you don't supply the answer required) and demands for evidence?
 
This is such a lazy argument.

It assumes that experts are not swayed by the politics of the environment in which they work.

It also assumes that the experts actually behave like experts, where for example the recent Tavistock Centre court case showed that they do not.



How should we better do this sort of stuff then?

By plebiscite?

By the decree of politicians?

By nobodies on a "sceptics'" forum?


Tell me of a better way to do it.
 
I think, being rational, most people here would acknowlege the fact that body dysphoria is a real and serious condition

This misses the point that what is being pushed by trans activists has nothing to do with gender dysphoria. In fact, it is central to the agenda that one does not need to have gender dysphoria to be transgender (note: not that one does not need a diagnosis; one does not need to have dysphoria at all). This is the basis of reframing the movement in terms of identity rather than dysphoria (the existence of gender dysphoria does not 'validate trans identity', contrary to what is being implied - these are concepts largely in opposition to each other). The ideology TRAs are pushing is based on Queer Theory, which is a heavily postmodernist theory largely originating from gender and cultural studies, and explicitly not scientific.

The political interference in this area is opposed by most of the key theorists responsible for developing current knowledge of gender dysphoria, which is why these researchers are attacked by TRAs.

and that transitioning treatments seem to work for the most part.

There is a serious lack of methodologically sound long-term follow-up studies of transitioning, but the best research available does not really support this. A key study supporting positive effects of surgical transitioning was methodologically flawed and recently subject to a published correction.

What researchers have pointed out is that those who had positive experiences with transitioning tend to become activists and assume that everyone is like them. In contrast, those who desist from dysphoria do not become activists, and de-transitioners are shunned. There are no recent long-term follow-up studies of de-transitioning. Researchers and funding bodies are terrified to address detransition due to the power of activist lobby groups.

Moreover, what research is available is based on outcomes under the 'gatekeeper' model where transitioning was confined to those with a long history of persistent dysphoria, which is now being abandoned.

And, being rational, most people probably also readily accept the fact people suffering from it have been victims of most hideous persecutions and violence - and many still are all over the world.

As others have said, this isn't consistent 'all over the world' at all.

And, bit more daringly, I'm sure for the most part people here do accept that gender and biological sex are both meaningful and separate concepts. A certain respect and sensitivity probably would not be anti-rational or anti-sceptic, or would it?

They are separate concepts, but only sex has objective and materially real definition. Definitions of gender have never been sound and are based on politics and fashion, which is why they form the focus for political activism. Reification of gender identity to replace biological sex as a defining and protected characteristic is anti-rational, anti-scientific and regressive, in my view. Aside from that, having separated sex and gender, 'deconstructed' biological sex, and reified gender identity to replace it, it appears the fashionable trend is now to say that sex and gender are in fact the same thing with identity sacrosanct and sex mutable, being surgically 'corrected' to fit.

“If we telescope forward to 2019, one of the interesting things in terms of politics is that many progressive parents - and putatively liberal progressive clinicians - have adopted an essentialist view of gender, which totally contradicts classical feminist theory…….. which is one of the things that makes this area so migraine-inducing - it’s very hard to keep up with what’s politically fashionable.”

Dr Ken Zucker, Chair of the Sexual and Gender Identity diagnostic working group for DSM5.
 
Me, at the beginning of part 1 of this thread:

Confrontationalism and a hardliner position aren't helpful. Trans issues are difficult, but I think we can probably figure out a good compromise that helps most people most of the time and does minimal harm otherwise. Mostly I'm concerned about the hard problem of getting good gatekeeping where necessary, without having to resort to "papers please" if we can avoid it. Hopefully someone has some ideas about this. Input from actual transgender persons would be especially helpful in figuring out how to make this work.
​
Me, now, after thoughtful consideration of the transgender and TRA contributions to every installment of this thread:

Maybe the confrontationalists and hardliners have a point.
​
 
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