[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Boudicca90]

Oh? Campaigning "under the radar" like comic-book Russian spies? Advocating surgery on little kids like a Hollywood horror-movie mad scientist?

I've got their theatrics sussed, and I suspect you do too.

Lmao, what? Their aims and tactics are not unusual, since other progressive groups use similar ones, including ones I'm a part of.

And your distortion of their views is what is really comical, they merely want transgender kids to receive the treatment they need to survive.

 

[Meadmaker]

It may not be as simple to segregate by genitals as you think, since plenty of trans women have vaginas. And having a penis says nothing about hormone levels since my estradiol and testosterone levels have been within a normal female range for years now.

Physically I have no advantage over a cisgender woman due to the changes I've undergone.

Say what?

Do you mean an artificially constructed cosmetically similar body alteration that has the appearance and characteristics of a vagina, or have I misunderstood some terms? i.e. a male-sex person can undergo surgery to be altered to have the appearance of a vagina and other female sex organs. I understand that, as, I'm sure, everyone else does. However, if they have a real, actual, vagina, they aren't transwomen, or am I behind on my language again?

As for hormone levels, my post didn't go into as much detail as it possibly could have, but some sporting federations do indeed allow people to compete based on harmone levels rather than "equipment", and that's fine. I know there's a lot of controversy on that subject. Exactly how to do that the best way is an open subject that has no obvious answer. If a penis possessor takes steps to deliberately handicap themselves to have performance characteristics similar to a vagina possessor, I have no problem if the sports federation running things decides that the penis possessor may, in that case, compete against the vagina possessors.

Simply put, is it still a good competition for spectators and/or athletes? If so, then no harm done.

 

[theprestige]

Physically I have no advantage over a cisgender woman due to the changes I've undergone.

Is that something your physician told you, or is that something you made up for rhetorical advantage?

Your muscle mass and bone structure were developed at male testosterone levels. The body your biology built for you, the body you inhabit today, was built as a male body. That doesn't change just because you're changing your current hormone mix. I'm sure you've lost a lot of your advantage relative to other males who haven't undergone your changes, but you're still at an advantage relative to females. A female who invested the same amount of effort in athletic conditioning as you have would likely be weaker and slower than you in any fair contest. A female who wanted to consistently beat you at such contests would have to put in an amount of effort that you could safely do without.

 

[Boudicca90]

Not all liberals. Just a tiny handful from a small subculture on a backwater discussion board.

And I don't think any of us wield any significant influence in the larger society. Except maybe Rolfe. But even in Rolfe's case, you'd probably get more value for time spent by engaging the SNP directly, rather than trying to reason with or against Rolfe here.

Seriously, how did you even find this thread? It's not like you came here for the abstruse skeptical wrangling, or the usual political slapfights, and discovered this particular conversation as a bonus. What is it about this thread, on this forum, that made you say to yourself, "self, these are the people I need to reach, these are the minds I need to change"?

I've been lurking here ever since this was the JREF forum, and when I saw a bigoted thread like this on a board I (used to) think highly of, I felt I had to speak out.

 

[theprestige]

Would a race car analogy help?

Put a Formula 2 driver behind the wheel of a Formula 1 car, and you've still got a Formula 1 car with a 1,000 HP, 18,000 RPM engine. You don't get to enter that car in F2 races, against F2 cars with 500 HP, 10,000 RPM engines, just because the driver is an F2 driver.

Nor do you get to enter an F1 car and an F1 driver in F2 races, just because the F1 driver decides they'd rather race F2.

 

[d4m10n]

They didn't lose to men, they lost to women. Stop trying to muddy the conversation.

Did they lose to individuals who went through male puberty at some point?

 

[Ziggurat]

Segregating by genitalia tells transwomen that their feelings and needs aren't valid unless they've actually gone under the knife. That doesn't seem fair.

It isn't possible to be fair in terms of validating people's feelings. That's a garbage metric. And "needs" haven't been established in this regard. There's a benefit to having people's feelings considered, but transwomen aren't the only people whose feelings matter in that regard.

Remember, the solution can't just be the easiest solution for the curmudgeons and the unreconstructed reactionary conservatives. It also has to honor the premise, needs, and feelings of transsexuals.

Needs to?

No, it doesn't need to. Such a solution is unlikely given the current balance of power, but that's a practical consideration, not a principled one. A principled consideration may hold such a solution to be sub-optimal, but any solution is always going to be suboptimal from somebody's perspective.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.

 

[theprestige]

They didn't lose to men, they lost to women. Stop trying to muddy the conversation.

Did they lose to individuals who went through male puberty at some point?

Everyone else: We need to have some clear terms to distinguish the different kinds of things we're talking about here.

TRAs: Stop trying to muddy the conversation!

 

[Manger Douse]

Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.

What do you think losing at every sporting competition at school will teach these girls? What will it do to their self esteem?

 

[Collin237]

Lmao, what? Their aims and tactics are not unusual, since other progressive groups use similar ones, including ones I'm a part of.

And your distortion of their views is what is really comical, they merely want transgender kids to receive the treatment they need to survive.

The medical "industrial complex" already provides such treatment.

 

[Myriad]

Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.

Let us know when you make some headway toward getting middle school students, their parents, and school staff not to celebrate or otherwise emphasize outcomes in their school sports.

 

[lionking]

Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.

Where do female Olympic athletes get their start? This is the point you and others seem to be missing.

 

[Sherkeu]

Hmm, you are right that many transphobes like you may not really be feminists. But you certainly like to use feminist language and justifications a lot, in your case you use them to back up your "Won't somebody think of the children?!" arguments.

That's why I am coming around to the fact that TERF may not be as accurate as the alternative suggested acronym of FART - Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe.

There is nothing 'transphobic' about being concerned when women's rights are being opened up to the entire category of males. That some of those males are now genuinely living as women is irrelevant. No one has yet told me how to tell the difference.

Yes, I do think of the children. I am a mother. And that is why I need to educate my female daughter. You said you thought you'd likely be sexually assaulted by a man yourself. How do you plan to protect from that?
And what should I tell my own kid about protecting herself from the same thing?

The main advice is not to let yourself get into a vulnerable situation with a man you do not know, and to get out of any such situation quickly if your instincts tell you something isn't right.

That is not transphobic. You are doing the same thing.

 

[Ron Obvious]

I can't wait for the first heavyweight boxer to identify as a flyweight and demand to compete against the other flyweights. When he cleans up, we can just tell those who lost by knockout against him that they should have just trained harder and we have no sympathy for them.

Never mind; I know how useless argument by analogy is. For all I know, it's even been made already in this thread, but I've not been able to keep up.

ETA: And no, this is not an argument to say that weight classes solve the issue of having people of opposite sex compete against each other. Women fighting men are at risk of being seriously hurt even if they weigh the same.

 

[Ziggurat]

Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.

It's rather disingenuous to just talk about middle school. The outcomes of high school games can be very important to the students involved, since they can impact scholarship chances. It's also at the high school level that biological differences become more pronounced, and transgender people are more likely to have come out by that age. And I don't think anyone wants to exclude trans kids from school sports. But trans girls don't have to be included with the other girls in order to be included. They can compete with the boys, since biologically that's what they are. Why is that not acceptable?

 

[Collin237]

It's rather disingenuous to just talk about middle school. The outcomes of high school games can be very important to the students involved, since they can impact scholarship chances. It's also at the high school level that biological differences become more pronounced, and transgender people are more likely to have come out by that age. And I don't think anyone wants to exclude trans kids from school sports. But trans girls don't have to be included with the other girls in order to be included. They can compete with the boys, since biologically that's what they are. Why is that not acceptable?

Yes, seriously, what are the TRAs afraid will happen? That the boys will make fun of her for moving like a girl? I got that a lot too, because of my autism. Students need to learn to treat exceptional people with respect.

 

[theprestige]

When I was in high school, there were a couple girls in the district league, who had successfully petitioned to compete on the (boy's) wrestling team. I don't recall any controversy or fuss. They would just show up at meets and tournaments and compete in their matches.

Being an awkward male at the time myself, I always felt bad for the boys who had to wrestle them. Just seemed like it would be awkward, and like certain basic moves would be off the table out of respect for boobs and buttocks.

Nowadays I'm thinking, if girls manifestly can compete on the boy's team, why is it so important that transgirls not?

Leaving aside the obnoxious debate about the definition of "woman": Why is it medically necessary for transwomen to compete on the women's team, instead of the men's team?

 

[Sherkeu]

What do you think losing at every sporting competition at school will teach these girls? What will it do to their self esteem?

The majority of these trans kids desist later on. Up to 10 or 11 yrs it's not a big deal- see my own kid as an example. After that, the differences start becoming much more meaningful for healthy competition.

Co-ed water polo became ridiculously imbalanced once some of the boys on the teams 'sprouted'. The whole idea that competition can still be remotely fair as kids enter their teens is delusional. It is straight-up biological advantage denialism. I have to think these people have zero experience in kids sports.

And no one ever talks about the girl who is NOT on the team because her spot went to a biological male. What about her right to play? She has basically been replaced by someone with the ability to naturally dope themselves.
Not that kids fault, but none of the females have access to those 'enhancing' drugs or the other structural benefits.

 

[Meadmaker]

Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.

I can't recall. Were you one of the people who chimed into the "sports aren't important anyway" discussion?

The outcome is pretty important to the participants, and not just, or not even mostly, Ziggurat's scholarship comments.

People who don't like sports have been trying to convince people, especially kids, to not keep score for a few decades now. All it has gotten us is a childhood obesity epidemic.