Joe Random
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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Agreed on all points. Sometimes I wonder if the second-wave pushback is about this as much about this as anything else.
Meadmaker
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The bedrooms were unchaperoned. The trip had adults on it, and therefore was not unchaperoned. Just as at band camp, we had chaperaones, but they did not sleep in the bedrooms with us.
I think you will find it is very rare for overnight trips where chaperones are in every room. Even in Boy Scouts, the adults slept in different tents from us kids. At least in my troop....
In recent years, the wisdom of keeping adults separate from children or adolescents has become more obvious to more people.
And yes, this was the case. There would be adults with the teams, but they would not share hotel rooms with the teenagers.
The bedrooms were unchaperoned. The trip had adults on it, and therefore was not unchaperoned. Just as at band camp, we had chaperaones, but they did not sleep in the bedrooms with us.
I think you will find it is very rare for overnight trips where chaperones are in every room. Even in Boy Scouts, the adults slept in different tents from us kids. At least in my troop....
So the adults sent the boys and girls off to their respective bedrooms? Then of course the trans girl would go to the girls' bedroom, simply as a formality. Whatever would be decided in terms of sleeping arrangements between her and the other girls would be no concern of the adults, and presumably the kids are smart enough to figure it out.
This is entirely different from a prison or shelter where there are actually contested rights at stake.
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Meadmaker can better answer this, but my take is that there wasn't one girls' and one boys' bedroom. The kids were paired up, two to a room. The kids don't sort out sleeping arrangements. A communal bedroom would actually be an easier call as there is less privacy and always a snitch.
Meadmaker
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I don't know how the situation was actually resolved, but it isn't really as simple as you make it out to be.
If it were, there would be no need for "boys' rooms", and "girls' rooms". There would be no need to segregate boys from girls.
There are enough transgender kids in schools and enough overnight field trips that this has to have come up more than once, so I don't know how it is generally resolved.
It's like you've never experienced anything in life.
caveman1917
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I would guess that for most people, it's not visual in that way at all. It's more a proprioception-based concept of your shape and your presence in the world, and where you are in relation to the things around you.
I was quite thin for most of my life, and that shaped my internal construct of where I am in relation to things around me. If I don't think about it, my "instinct" is that I can totally fit through that narrow gap. I can't, because I'm quite a bit more round than I was 10 years ago. But my mental construct of myself hasn't caught up. Same kind of thing with how flexible I think I am, or whether or not hiking up that steep trail is going to leave me winded. My instinctual concept of myself doesn't conform to objective reality
That doesn't seem to be the same thing though. You've always been fitting through narrow gaps so your brain learns "I can fit through narrow gaps." When you later gain weight and can't fit through these gaps anymore, your brain will of course take some time to adjust to this new situation. That's not the same as some male having a self-image of a female though, they've never been female, their brain has never learned "I am of the female phenotype" through earlier, repeated experience.
Does the brain have to learn everything through experience?
caveman1917
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Those studies d not appear to be accounting for homosexuality as a confounding factor, which makes them pretty useless. It wouldn't be the first time that a study comes out supporting the notion of a biological identifier for transgenderism which then turns out to be a biological identifier for homosexuality instead. IIRC there was even one study being promoted heavily by TRA regarding a certain aspect of the brain, until it was pointed out that this brain thing was already known to indicate homosexuality.
caveman1917
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No, but clearly it did in the example Emily's Cat gave. In as much as it was intended as an example for how a transwoman would have a self-image of female physical characteristics it failed.
What appears to be an international lobby of trans activists is actually anti trans activists. They are led by IGLYO, an LGB-anti-T organization that is attempting to prevent parents from guiding gender-questioning children through a healthy transition. Unfortunately, the person who discovered this, James Kirkup, is a Tory, and his ideology is making it difficult for him to investigate objectively.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-bbc-should-be-ashamed-of-its-reporting-on-trans-teenagers
Emily's Cat, thank you for leading me on the path to this article.
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The studies mentioned were twin studies. and a study correlating certain gene variations for androgen receptors. They were not measures of sexual arousal like the brain study you reference. (That one was also on wikipedia, but I excluded it from my quote. Partly for the reason you mention.)
I wouldn't consider those studies conclusive. At a glance, it appears to me that the twin studies, which are the ones I find most interesting, are limited by sample size. That's not surprising given the size of the population of trans-people intersecting the population of twins as well as geographic availability to researchers.
The sexuality was only known for 40% of the participants in the androgen study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402034/). But as they were looking for correlations between androgen receptor gene length and trans-identity, not sexuality, I'm not sure how homosexuality would be a confounding factor unless you are suggesting that gender dysphoria is a form or consequence of homosexuality.
But the question was not "is there conclusive scientific evidence" (which there is not, as far as I can see, in either direction) it was "is there a scientific basis. The answer to that question is "yes, there is."
I just read your article...what?
James Kirkup is saying that the media is misrepresenting or overstating the risk of teens committing suicide if they are not given access to puberty blockers. I saw nothing in that article that remotely resembles what you described. Nothing about discovering that IGLYO is attempting to prevent parents from guiding kids to a "healthy transition." Hell, nothing about IGLYO.
And nothing about Kirkup discovering anything. Just that he doesn't consider the BBC quoted doctors experts and that other doctors he considers experts say that transgender youth are not at unusual risk of suicide.
I'm not familiar with IGLYO, but to my reading, that article does not say or suggest what you say it does.
I think we have another area of the board for conspiracy theories.
No, it is real trans activist organisation. The guidance that they are promoting was found by a law blog, and then rippled out from there. That you don't like the politics of the journalist is irrelevant. Try another Spectator writer:
https://twitter.com/DebbieHayton?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
You seem to have the view that trans activists who are calling for more than you are, are in fact antitrans.
caveman1917
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Yes, a confounding factor in that at least some gender dysphoria may be a form of homosexuality. The vast majority of gender dysphoric children, when no interventions are made, grow up to be non-dysphoric homosexuals. The leaked documents from the Tavistock center show that there are at least some people adopting a transgender identity as a fallback for them being homosexual, either through internalized homophobia or homophobic bullying from peers. Then there are some brain studies which found a correlation with trans identity which turned out later to actually show a correlation with homosexuality.
Homosexuality is a confounding factor throughout. If you find a correlation between androgen receptor gene length and trans-identity, and you don't control for homosexuality, you may very well simply have found a correlation between androgen receptor gene length and homosexuality but are misinterpreting the finding. That's exactly what happened with that one brain study. Can't remember the details, it was discussed a couple thread iterations ago and I'm not going to go look for it. I think it was the university of Liege (Belgium) and that it was like 3 or 4 years ago.
Cantor posted a summary of brain research and the confound between gender identity and sexual orientation on his blog.
You seem to have the view that trans activists who are calling for more than you are, are in fact antitrans.
That's a bizarre claim, considering that (as several posters have pointed out) I do not even have a solid line of how much I am calling for.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
But no more bizarre than many of your other claims.
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