theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I'm sorry, did you just call Rolfe a rapist?
Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)
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I'm sorry, did you just call Rolfe a rapist?
I'm not supposed to make a claim without sources? Too late. I already said it.
Did you? You clearly have no objection at all to Rolfe's extreme bigotry. And when I call her godlike certainty into question, that's what you make of it. Well, then!
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Sherkeu
Illuminator
Going back in time a bit, I have a little light bulb about the idea that not being attracted to trans persons is somehow transphobic if you thought they were "attractive" beforehand.
Here's is the jist of one article who puts it into legal terms:
https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2019/12/14/refusing-date-trans-people-transphobic
I thought back to my last date, a guy recommended to me at a party by a lifelong friend of mine.
He was tall, very attractive, good job, well-dressed, polite, good personality.... a bit young for me at 38 (but I can deal with that!). Well, we danced all night and then everyone went to some 50's style lounge where things were better for conversation. Going really well so far!!
but then....
He started to share with me that he had broken up with his girlfriend of four years and moved out the DAY BEFORE. Also, he worried about getting a roommate and how it just costs a lot for his own place (it does, but I got mine!). Then he went on to lament that he worried how her two young boys would miss him as he knew them from nearly babies.
Well.
I felt like I was on a way-too-soon rebound therapy date with a very needy guy. A bunch of scenarios passed though my brain- none of them good.
Suddenly, and quite literally, this guy just was NOT attractive anymore.
One minute he is looking like a good match, and a few hours later I am running for the hills!! haha
So, according to the trans rights argument, he was attractive, then he shared his personal story, then he was not attractive. I could still say he was good looking to other people in some objective way, but those other people can date him then. I'm OUT.
I think these transwomen do not understand that attractiveness for women (and a whole chunk of men too!!) is sort of a 'whole package' thing as it is always the transwomen who write these articles of 'attractiveness bias'.
A guy I am not attracted to can become attractive and vice versa. A man's looks can get way better or way worse, depending. And yes, it changes how I physically see them.
Here's is the jist of one article who puts it into legal terms:
https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2019/12/14/refusing-date-trans-people-transphobic
I thought back to my last date, a guy recommended to me at a party by a lifelong friend of mine.
He was tall, very attractive, good job, well-dressed, polite, good personality.... a bit young for me at 38 (but I can deal with that!). Well, we danced all night and then everyone went to some 50's style lounge where things were better for conversation. Going really well so far!!
but then....He started to share with me that he had broken up with his girlfriend of four years and moved out the DAY BEFORE. Also, he worried about getting a roommate and how it just costs a lot for his own place (it does, but I got mine!). Then he went on to lament that he worried how her two young boys would miss him as he knew them from nearly babies.
Well.
I felt like I was on a way-too-soon rebound therapy date with a very needy guy. A bunch of scenarios passed though my brain- none of them good.
Suddenly, and quite literally, this guy just was NOT attractive anymore.
One minute he is looking like a good match, and a few hours later I am running for the hills!! haha
So, according to the trans rights argument, he was attractive, then he shared his personal story, then he was not attractive. I could still say he was good looking to other people in some objective way, but those other people can date him then. I'm OUT.
I think these transwomen do not understand that attractiveness for women (and a whole chunk of men too!!) is sort of a 'whole package' thing as it is always the transwomen who write these articles of 'attractiveness bias'.
A guy I am not attracted to can become attractive and vice versa. A man's looks can get way better or way worse, depending. And yes, it changes how I physically see them.
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Going back in time a bit, I have a little light bulb about the idea that not being attracted to trans persons is somehow transphobic if you thought they were "attractive" beforehand.
Here's is the jist of one article who puts it into legal terms:
https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2019/12/14/refusing-date-trans-people-transphobic
I thought back to my last date, a guy recommended to me at a party by a lifelong friend of mine.
He was tall, very attractive, good job, well-dressed, polite, good personality.... a bit young for me at 38 (but I can deal with that!). Well, we danced all night and then everyone went to some 50's style lounge where things were better for conversation. Going really well so far!!
He started to share with me that he had broken up with his girlfriend of four years and moved out the DAY BEFORE. Also, he worried about getting a roommate and how it just costs a lot for his own place (it does, but I got mine!). Then he went on to lament that he worried how her two young boys would miss him as he knew them from nearly babies.
Well.
I felt like I was on a way-too-soon rebound therapy date with a very needy guy. A bunch of scenarios passed though my brain- none of them good.
Suddenly, and quite literally, this guy just was NOT attractive anymore.
One minute he is looking like a good match, and a few hours later I am running for the hills!! haha
So, according to the trans rights argument, he was attractive, then he shared his personal story, then he was not attractive. I could still say he was good looking to other people in some objective way, but those other people can date him then. I'm OUT.
I think these transwomen do not understand that attractiveness for women (and a whole chunk of men too!!) is sort of a 'whole package' thing as it is always the transwomen who write these articles of 'attractiveness bias'.
A guy I am not attracted to can become attractive and vice versa. A man's looks can get way better or way worse, depending. And yes, it changes how I physically see them.
If she's willing to tell me she's transgender, then I'd assume she'd understand if I told her politely that sex is off, but we can spend the date doing anything else.
Sherkeu
Illuminator
If women were regularly at risk from other women, we would not be arguing for our spaces. We know how often it happens, because we have been women sharing personal space with other women for a very long time.
Meadmaker
Unregistered
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I have a question, now that you have been here a few days, and read plenty of hate speech and the like. I saw your list of answers to the wide array of questions, so I know the general case, but I'm trying to figure out how you would handle a specific instance, so I'll just describe the news story that brought me into a predecessor of this thread. The basic story has since been repeated many times in US schools.
I'm not demanding an answer, but I do wonder where you would stand on an issue like this.
A transgirl high school student who has undergone no physical transitioning, i.e no surgery, no hormones, nothing that would alter the appearance of the male body, wishes to use the girls' locker room at the high school. It is a traditionally laid out locker room, i.e. there are no privacy stalls. Girls in their underwear are common. Girls completely disrobed is not at all unusual, as the school has swim classes and a swim team. Showers are also present. I think they had curtains, but were not completely concealed. I'm not sure about that. I do know that it was anticipated that the transgirl might be completely exposed at times, as would the cis-girls using the locker room.
There is a separate facility normally used by coaches. It has a separate entrance so it is possible for the transgirl to have a completely private area for herself to change. Use of this facility has been offered to the transgirl. The transgirl said this was unacceptable. Some of the girls object to the presence of the transgirl.
What would you recommend?
Some of the options are:
Allow the transgirl full and unrestricted use of the locker room.
Refuse access to the transgirl, but offer the use of the coaches' room. (As I said, this was actually offered, but rejected by the transgirl. I am asking if that would be something that, if you had your way, would happen anyway, and if the transgirl refused she would simply not be allowed to use any locker room, which might possibly restrict participation in some school activities.)
Allow the transgirl to use the locker room, but only under conditions where her male genitalia would never be exposed. (Privacy curtains, and a promise that at least a towel would cover the naughty bits.)
Allow any girl who objects to using the locker room while the transgirl may be present to opt out of activities, but this would mean that they do not participate in school activities they wish to join in.
Some of the options NOT available are
Rebuild the locker rooms to allow full privacy for all students. This simply isn't an option with the existing construction. Neither time nor space, nor money is available for the retrofit. In other words, I know from your previous answer that this would be your preferred option, but it simply cannot be done in the existing building.
Schedule activities in such a way that any girl who objects can avoid the presence of the transgirl. There just isn't a way to rearrange the schedule.
Allow any girl who wishes use of the coaches' room. The room is too small to accommodate the number of girls who object.
*************************************************************
So, what would you do? (In the real life case, the school board voted to allow unrestricted access to the transgirl.)
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Sherkeu
Illuminator
Nope. That is not good enough for them Collin. If you were attracted to her before she told you, then you are being transphobic not to give her a chance at romance with you.
You should not care about the configuration of her genitals. You are likely just afraid of being labeled 'gay'..... or something. No matter what, it is your phobia.
(and if you read the article, this is actually what they say)
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
(Such articles either don't really exist, are fake news, or are hoaxes made up by anti-tras.)
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Evidently we've progressed to the point where it's wrong to shame someone for having a foot fetish but okay to shame them for having a penis fetish.
What a world.
Many years ago, I read an article in a science magazine, that said some molecules in the air, apparently of industrial origin, might have an effect similar to sexual hormones, but nobody had any idea what it might eventually cause. I think the appearance of trans people nowadays might be a result of those molecules. Interestingly enough, I've almost never heard about it since. Apparently the industries that might be responsible for those molecules are lobbying to keep it quiet.
Trans women are not choosing to invade your space. They've been put in your space by environmental malpractice that's almost certainly the result of cis men's irresponsibility. Those industries have a vested interest in preventing you from joining with them in solidarity.
Joe Random
Illuminator
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... that moment when you start to reach for the apple, but notice someone has carved "Kallisti" into it ...
The biggest problem I see here is how did she get to high school age without free services to help her feminize? If she was sure of her female gender but her body was still completely masculine, it was mainly her own right to autonomy that was being abridged.
Was the school too prudish?
Were her parents too prudish?
Was there no reputable gender specialist available?
Whatever it was, it should have been included with the locker room issue in the same litigation.
Tsukasa Buddha
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That article has this weird notion I keep seeing in articles about dating trans people, but never really hearing about in gay spaces:
I even saw an article claiming that gay men brag about being "platinum star gays", because they were born via caesarian and thus had never touched a vagina. For some reason this is absolutely hilarious to me.
Not only is this not a thing, but it strikes me as preposterous to assume that gays would be limiting themselves and being false about their desires to maintain an identity like straight people are (according to this theory). People realize they are gay precisely because they did not do those things.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Just out of curiosity, how old does someone have to be to get a tattoo where you live?
Sherkeu
Illuminator
Now that is a new one to me!!! Too funny!
However, the sperm that made half of them got in there somehow!!
The true gold super duper brilliant star is having a mom who somehow had laparoscopic IVF, delivers by c-section, and bottle feeds.
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Meadmaker
Unregistered
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I am not sure I understand the first question.
I do not know why she did not engage in a physical transformation. I do not know if it was her choice, her parents' choice, or if there was some medical reason not to.
What I know for certain is that the party line for TRAs is that no physical transformation is necessary in order to be recognized as the gender that you identify with. A person who identifies as the gender other than the one assigned at birth should be recognized as that gender, regardless of the current state of their body, and regardless of any intention to do any sort of physical transition in the future.
In other words, at least according to most TRAs, the question is irrelevant. Other people, including yourself, might have different opinions. If it affects your answer, try to express that as a contingency.
Once again, I don't understand this comment. Given its proximity to the question you asked, I think what you are saying is that the most logical explanation for her not to have begun a physical transition is that she was not allowed to do so. i.e. that was her "right to autonomy" that you are referring to. Assuming that is the case, that's a misunderstanding of modern transgender rights positions. As noted above, physical transition is not in any way part of the decision to live your life as the gender consistent with your gender identity. Many transgender people never seek physical transition.
And I don't know if these questions are intended as follow on questions to your first question, or if there is a different issue you are asking about. i.e. Too prudish for what? For physical transition, or for some aspect of locker room use?
What I am certain of is that the litigation involved would not in any way be dependent on medical treatment for physical transition, regardless of whether the absence of treatment was the choice of the transgirl or some other authority. The specific case I am thinking of (although it could have been other very similar cases) occurred in suburban Chicago, so I am certain that lack of medical professionals available was not a factor.
So, with that in mind, what would your answer to the question be? If you were the principal, or on the school board, and had to decide about locker room use, what do you think ought to happen? (The case was never actually litigated. What actually happened was that the transgirl was allowed to use the locker room with some restrictions. Some students sued the school district. The case was dismissed as moot after the students graduated. However, another transgender student made the same request, and this time the school board voted to allow unrestricted access. This decision was in November, 2019, so a couple of months later, Covid struck. I don't know if there was any subsequent litigation. ) Are you suggesting that the presence of medical transition would affect your decision? Or that the absence of medical transition, and possibly the reasons for the absence would affect your answers? If so, just include that as part of your answer. Just be advised that trans rights activists would say it was not relevant to the question. Not that that is terribly important. I'm looking for your answer. I'm just not certain that you are aware that many transgender people choose not to transition, and that choice is purely personal, even if they have professionals willing to provide the services, and the means to pay any costs without unreasonable financial burden.
Also, assume, for the purposes of this question, that litigation constraints are not the issue. The basis of my question is about what ought to be done, not what the law currently requires, or what might result in a lawsuit.
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I didn't get the impression that the article was making a point either way. It sounded like just a stream-of-consciousness essay. And they're right that it's a phobia, not as a suffix, but in the sense usually denoted by "phobia" as a separate word. If she still had a penis, I probably would feel ill if I saw her undress. It's far better that I'd not let it get to that point. If she doesn't accept that, all it really means is that it was a bad date, and life goes on.
Ron Obvious
Graduate Poster
You're only making it worse for yourself, you bloody transphobe.
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
This is Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying discussing President Biden's executive order on gender identity discrimination and some of the thorny issues it raises.
The issues they discuss are all ones that have been mentioned in this thread, such as whether transgender women should be allowed to participate in women's sports, or should they be sent to women's prisons, or the like.
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