Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Collin237]

Once again, I don't understand this comment. Given its proximity to the question you asked, I think what you are saying is that the most logical explanation for her not to have begun a physical transition is that she was not allowed to do so. i.e. that was her "right to autonomy" that you are referring to. Assuming that is the case, that's a misunderstanding of modern transgender rights positions. As noted above, physical transition is not in any way part of the decision to live your life as the gender consistent with your gender identity. Many transgender people never seek physical transition.

I'm not arguing from a party line, but from a politically independent standpoint. And yes, my questions were meant with the elided "for physical transition".

Trans rights advocacy seems to be based on post-modernism, whereas I tend to think in terms of post-structuralism. So inevitably I'm not going to be 100% in alignment with the popular view. If she actually expressed a desire not to transition, then of course my reasoning wouldn't apply.

 

[Sherkeu]

This is Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying discussing President Biden's executive order on gender identity discrimination and some of the thorny issues it raises.

The issues they discuss are all ones that have been mentioned in this thread, such as whether transgender women should be allowed to participate in women's sports, or should they be sent to women's prisons, or the like.

Thanks Puppycow! Listening now.
I think I listened to all of their shows when they started about COVID up til August or so when it got a bit repetitive with the all the riots, politics, unity thing, etc... (they do live in Portland so I understand )



(I met the brothers in 2019 (maybe early 2020?). Bret is delightful. Eric was trying to make clever jokes at my expense. I was not prepared for him to be such a toad but I'll get him back one day!! )

 

[Meadmaker]

I'm not arguing from a party line, but from a politically independent standpoint. And yes, my questions were meant with the elided "for physical transition".

Trans rights advocacy seems to be based on post-modernism, whereas I tend to think in terms of post-structuralism. So inevitably I'm not going to be 100% in alignment with the popular view. If she actually expressed a desire not to transition, then of course my reasoning wouldn't apply.

Ok.

So, are you willing to answer the question? What should happen? Unrestricted access? Restricted access? No access? Something else?

ETA: Or does it depend on facts not in evidence? e.g. "If she chose by herself not to transition, then no access, but if she was prohibited by someone else from transitioning, unrestricted access."

 

[Sherkeu]

I'm not arguing from a party line, but from a politically independent standpoint. And yes, my questions were meant with the elided "for physical transition".

Trans rights advocacy seems to be based on post-modernism, whereas I tend to think in terms of post-structuralism. So inevitably I'm not going to be 100% in alignment with the popular view. If she actually expressed a desire not to transition, then of course my reasoning wouldn't apply.

You may be better off dropping the labels and thinking in terms that these students are children.
There is no physical transition before this age. Puberty blockers and social transition are about it.

Kids are also pretty dumb about long-term decision making at this age. These are the years you are allowed to do dumb stuff.
However getting medical interventions that can affect you for the rest of your life isn't one I'd recommend.

I don't see what anyone being a prude has to do with it.
My kid 100% wanted to be a mermaid at 8-9yo. Wanted to spend her college money on a fancy custom latex tail like she saw on TV. She really begged for it. I told her ok....but you'll grow, then you'll need a new one every year for about 6 years. They are also costly and heavy and you wont swim like you do with the cheap one. Also, you wont get those last two, because you'll be out of money and won't be able to get a car. Maybe just some cheap shoes for walking.
She thought about that....and that was the end of the 'custom' mermaid episode.

She was a really good mermaid though and was still allowed to mermaid all day long if she wanted.

Sometimes you need to be the parent.

https://flic.kr/p/2kyNoCY by https://www.flickr.com/photos/155114068@N02/

 

[Meadmaker]

You may be better off dropping the labels and thinking in terms that these students are children.
There is no physical transition before this age. Puberty blockers and social transition are about it.

Hormone replacement therapy also happens for minors. I don't know the rules. I don't know about parental veto powers. I don't know about age limits. I don't know about variations across states. I just know it can be done.

 

[Sherkeu]

Hormone replacement therapy also happens for minors. I don't know the rules. I don't know about parental veto powers. I don't know about age limits. I don't know about variations across states. I just know it can be done.

Yeah, but Collin was suggesting it would be done before high school started. Those kids are only 13/14....or younger.

 

[Airfix]

If someone born male wants to have their body surgically altered to become female (or vice versa), that's nobody else's business.

It's not like they're forcing anyone else to undergo the op.

 

[Ziggurat]

Obviously, this isn’t illegal, nor should it be. But, from a logical standpoint, yes, this is discriminatory and transphobic.

Logically, it is discriminatory. Any decision about what is or is not attractive is inherently discriminatory, that’s the entire point. But there is nothing logical about the conclusion that it is transphobic. The attempt to paint any discrimination against trans people as transphobic is deeply dishonest.

 

[Sherkeu]

If someone born male wants to have their body surgically altered to become female (or vice versa), that's nobody else's business.

It's not like they're forcing anyone else to undergo the op.

Most of them do not undergo the "op" and many do not even want to.
There is no requirement for any medical intervention, hormones, or surgery (not should there be). Just the "expression" of the opposite gender is enough. What we debate here is "what does expression mean in terms of women's rights. Is it enough just to feel it and claim it?

The way you phrased it would describe transexuals, not transgenders, though transgender is now used as the overall umbrella term.

 

[Sherkeu]

The example I like to use is my height vs my 'stature'. A woman's on-line dating profile says she's only interested in men over 6'4". My 5'9" self shows up and tells her I may only be 5'9" physically, but my internal sense of stature is 6'6", so she's a bigot if she says she's not interested. Kinda don't think that would fly, and for good reason.

I like to say that a man should be taller than I am in heels, which is over 6' (and could be higher if I could walk in those ridiculously high ones!).
But my longest term boyfriends were both 5'9"! 5 years a piece total shorties.

However, when I had a child, the father was over 6'6".

So 5'9" is all good to date but no procreating..ok?.. AND it avoids child support as a bonus!!!!.
*Not that I take any now...(he is actually a great guy, just a bit financially impaired.)

 

[caveman1917]

Awful nit-picky, aren't we?

For the purposes of the definition I gave, self-image would refer to how you picture yourself in your internal dialogue, not how you perceive yourself in the mirror. A non-delusional person would be aware of both the mental and physical images and how they differ.

My self-image, the way I tend to think of myself, is along the lines of myself at 30. I'm 52. I know that I'm about 50 pounds heavier and a step slower and need to pee more often. But I still think of myself the same way I thought of myself when I was thirty.

If I believed that I actually still weighed 150 pounds instead of 200 pounds, that would be delusional.

Not sure about anyone else, but my internal dialogue isn't visual. It doesn't come with me visualizing myself, let alone with various different physical characteristics, it's just a thought process and not a visualization. I'm not sure how this is even supposed to work. Like, when you have an internal dialogue you "see" yourself, and in that image you have various different physical characteristics from those you actually have?

 

[caveman1917]

They want to obligate other people to treat them as if they can produce eggs, even if they can't? And also, obligate society to grant them entitlements to egg-related services?

I dunno. We're kind of moving off into some twilight zone territory with this one.

I was just playing along with Meadmaker's Monty Python reference.

 

[caveman1917]

Performing womanhood.

Remember the man who was admitted to the ER with abdominal distress, who was triaged as a man, diagnosed as a man, and treated as a man? And it ended more badly than it should have, because he was female and pregnant?

Performing manhood was more important than telling the medical staff, "I know I'm a man, but you should probably be aware that a few months ago someone put their dude-stick up my mangina, and it's entirely possible I've got a baby growing in my dude-terus. Or as I like to call it, my lady-scrote."

Personally I'm impressed at the set of brass balls on someone who chooses the role of a fully-operational female in vanilla PiV sex, and still confidently insists to medical professionals that they're a man.

See my response to Emily's Cat in the post above this one. Nobody seriously got Meadmaker's reference and my playing along?

 

[Sherkeu]

I was just playing along with Meadmaker's Monty Python reference.

You just know that Monty Python would create policies that were both a parody AND made totally brilliant sense.
I second the nomination!!!

 

[Collin237]

Ok.

So, are you willing to answer the question? What should happen? Unrestricted access? Restricted access? No access? Something else?

ETA: Or does it depend on facts not in evidence? e.g. "If she chose by herself not to transition, then no access, but if she was prohibited by someone else from transitioning, unrestricted access."

Ultimately, what access she gets depends on civil deliberation throughout the school. Not a logical formula someone would drop as if from heaven; but not a contest between mobs either.

 

[Sherkeu]

Ultimately, what access she gets depends on civil deliberation throughout the school. Not a logical formula someone would drop as if from heaven; but not a contest between mobs either.

Local opinions do not matter now. Title ix is federal. They fund many girls HS sports programs so they get to play. Boys don't need it so much.
Unless public schools want to pay for it themselves, which they don't.

So you have 10 minutes with Biden. He wants your opinion on how he should instruct the county's public education on this for federal funding,apart from the current rules (did you read the thread yet?).
What do you tell him?

 

[Collin237]

What we debate here is "what does expression mean in terms of women's rights. Is it enough just to feel it and claim it?

Two words I surprisingly haven't seen in this thread are "truscum" and "tucute".

https://bethaniaarts.com/2019/01/to...-war-with-each-other-seriously-needs-to-stop/

 

[Collin237]

Local opinions do not matter now. Title ix is federal. They fund many girls HS sports programs so they get to play. Boys don't need it so much.

I was asked what my opinion was on how a local case should have been handled. If Title IX doesn't allow local opinion, what was the question for?

So you have 10 minutes with Biden. He wants your opinion on how he should instruct the county's public education on this for federal funding,apart from the current rules (did you read the thread yet?).
What do you tell him?

I'd remind him of when Obama updated Title IX, and because of manipulative school counselors, a victim of a very simple case of sexual misconduct became the Mattress Girl. I'd say Obama didn't understand the Leftist idiocy he was up against. You do. You fought it and won. Make sure something like that doesn't happen again.

 

[Collin237]

... that moment when you start to reach for the apple, but notice someone has carved "Kallisti" into it ...

Which is why I waited to mention it until Gog Peleus and Magog Thetis were out of the room.

 

[Butter!]

Cis women raping other cis women. Nobody knows how often it happens, because all the reports are bought up by spam-porn.

I wonder how much of this anti trans stuff is just women not wanting to admit the possibility.

Collin, honestly.

This is what endlessly frustrates me about this discussion. Why can't we (we as in all of us) just have a good faith exchange?

One doesn't need to be anti-trans in order to see the potential for problems with prison housing, and one definitely does not need to exclude ALL trans people in a hardline way in order to mitigate some of those risks.